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Where has all the Grumblers gone

Larry Peterson

PFG, Picture Framing God
I just got the following message through my shop on Etsy from someone named Louis Hart. He just joined Etsy today so it appears he joined just to send me this message. I know this has been discussed alot in another thread but once again, the question needs to be a little easier.

Larry, I see the postings in the Grumble and the one about 'where have all the framers gone' caught my attention. I'm contacting you because I used to be a Grumbler, but got thrown off in a change of software and have not been able to get back on thanks to the new set up. When I try to sign on with my old email, I'm asked for a password and when I try to reset the password I get an arcane question about 'call the samples on my wall', which question I never set up so had never provided an answer.. In other environments, you get a choice of questions like 'mothers maiden name' or 'city where you were born'. Grumble seems set up to throw people out and not let them or any new person in. Louis Hart
 

Jim Miller

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
The owner of the Grumble has been conspicuously absent from all activities of the forum for quite a while now. If he monitors what's going on, he must be doing it very discreetly. I've heard from others who were unable to get him to respond to inquiries.

I hope Louis Hart can re-join the forum. Indeed, I hope a lot of framers can - and will - re-join the Grumble.
 

prospero

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
I am thinking about starting my own FB group and calling it "Shut your face book"
YouTwitFace. :p

I'm on a FB group for Lincolnshire folk and all the posts are written phonetically in dialect.

Trouble is, when yer come off the pairge it teks yer a while ter git back ter normal. Whateverthe heck that is...o_O

The big delight is it meks yon spellchecker gor wappy. :D
 

Pat Kotnour

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
The masses have migrated to Facebook and the allure of quick responses in the many and varied framing groups over there. The response time for the G has slowed down considerably since then. :(
Framar is right. Face Book has taken over.
 

i-FRAMER

MGF, Master Grumble Framer
i would not have got. I think that is more an American term. Even if you google Chevron samples nothing on framing comes up. I would have said "moulding samples" or corner samples"
 

Framar

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Yup. Chevron is the last word I'd have thought of. I call them corner samples. Which of course makes it confusing when I also refer to mat samples as corner samples. Oy vey, eh?
 

neilframer

PFG, Picture Framing God
Yup. Chevron is the last word I'd have thought of. I call them corner samples. Which of course makes it confusing when I also refer to mat samples as corner samples. Oy vey, eh?
Oy vey indeed.;)
One of the guys at work mentioned to me the other day about someone who couldn't answer the question about what the corners are called.
I said "chevrons" not that I would ever use that word anywhere in a sentence or in conversation.o_O
I just somehow knew that it was the answer to that question.:cool:
(I've been framing waaaay too long...:p).
 
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Mike Labbe

Member, Former moderator team volunteer
A *LOT* of new users can't seem to get by that verification question, unfortunately. Dozens have emailed me saying they couldn't get through to the forum by email.

The good news is that the extreme political posts and hate posts that drove everything up to a frenzy and eventually drove people off, has ALL moved to Facebook. The G is is now a peaceful friendly place. free of all that nonsense. I cringe at what I read on FB every morning.

FB is losing popularity because of all the data harvesting/marketing and hate stuff on there, and has become more popular for older folks and elderly. This is a safe haven. Most folks under 30 are using other services, it seems.

Mike
 

prospero

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Facebook is OK..... to a point.

Thing is, a lot of folks don't seem to know how to write stuff. I can put up with spelling mistakes, after all we
are not in the schoolroom and I'm not the world's greatest speller. But it's amazing how many adults (you've got
to be 16 to join - officially) don't know the difference between 'there', 'their' and 'they're'. And 'quite' and 'quiet'.
One chap the other day had an 'infinity' for dogs.

Then there's the Birthdays. "It's Whohisnames Birthday today. Send Whohisname a Birthday Greeting!"

Most of these folks I have no idea who they are and if I did I frankly don't care if it's their birthday.
What am I? 12 years old? ;):D
 

Bob Carter

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
i pretty much avoid FB; way too much hate and mindless political cartoons. Here, if you wish to discuss politics, go to Dogpile. It's separated and enter on your own.

I don't post much anymore; little to add on many issues

curious how many framers there are today vs back in 'high traffic' days here?
 

RoboFramer

PFG, Picture Framing God
Facebook gets on my nerves but some horror films practically traumatize me for life and I still watch them!

In the army I was in communications - all the lessons on security, not falling for BS from the enemy - or giving them information through slack procedures etc. People higher up than me in the business fall for worse on F Book - some of the idiots did 22 push-ups a day for 22 days and posted a video each day - to raise awareness of the 22 daily suicides by forces veterans. It's less than one a day (still too much, but still) They just believe it without question and can't even be bothered to research it and then - should they STILL believe it (and more, faaaaaaar more) fine, start a post yourself instead!

I've unfollowed and unfriended so many - and then, as they are in groups I also am, have ended up blocking them altogether to stop the BS in my newsfeed.

Just off to chuck a bucket of iced water over myself because someone gets knocked over by a drunken driver every three seconds (and I hear he's getting pretty pissed about it)

Laters!
 

Rick Granick

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Just off to chuck a bucket of iced water over myself because someone gets knocked over by a drunken driver every three seconds (and I hear he's getting pretty pissed about it)
Whenever there is an inane national trend such as that, or Pokemon Go, or the varying interpretations of a dress color, etc... my first reaction is: What is happening in the real world that we aren't supposed to pay attention to?
:eek: Rick
 

Ylva

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
I think the G will be here long after FB has gone and been replaced.

I check FB for some, but I unfollowed most people. I don’t appreciate all the political anger.
I am part of the dog pile here, not very active but I can choose to ignore it if I’m not in the mood.
I do like FB groups when I need answers quick.
 

UzZx32QU

Administrator
Staff member
The owner of the Grumble has been conspicuously absent from all activities of the forum for quite a while now. If he monitors what's going on, he must be doing it very discreetly. I've heard from others who were unable to get him to respond to inquiries.

I hope Louis Hart can re-join the forum. Indeed, I hope a lot of framers can - and will - re-join the Grumble.
To Everyone,

I'm still kicking..

Few Items, Corner, Corners, Chevron, Chevrons is what needed to gain membership. This one thing reduced spammers to also 0%. Those that claim they could not get back on after the last upgrade could have started a new profile and have me merge it to their old profile I did that for several members years ago. My phone number plastered all over the place. I respond to messages when I receive them. I do check in several times a day and continue to run and backup the server daily. Now the bad news sponsorship is almost gone if I lose 888 I might need to shutter the G. The software needs to be upgraded and the backup server is needing to be retired and replaced. I also need to put theG on a https account also cost more.

I purposely have taken an offhand approach to moderating on theG. When I get a report with a complaint I review and take action if needed. I never like the us against them that happen with the moderators. I am open to using moderators again if a large group requests it and I get a somebody that wants the job.

A new political season is upon us, I'm worried about the food fight to come.

I'm open to suggestions and help on all of the above if you want to keep theG.

Thanks for listening,

Bill
 

neilframer

PFG, Picture Framing God
To Everyone,

I'm still kicking..

Few Items, Corner, Corners, Chevron, Chevrons is what needed to gain membership. This one thing reduced spammers to also 0%. Those that claim they could not get back on after the last upgrade could have started a new profile and have me merge it to their old profile I did that for several members years ago. My phone number plastered all over the place. I respond to messages when I receive them. I do check in several times a day and continue to run and backup the server daily. Now the bad news sponsorship is almost gone if I lose 888 I might need to shutter the G. The software needs to be upgraded and the backup server is needing to be retired and replaced. I also need to put theG on a https account also cost more.

I purposely have taken an offhand approach to moderating on theG. When I get a report with a complaint I review and take action if needed. I never like the us against them that happen with the moderators. I am open to using moderators again if a large group requests it and I get a somebody that wants the job.

A new political season is upon us, I'm worried about the food fight to come.

I'm open to suggestions and help on all of the above if you want to keep theG.

Thanks for listening,

Bill
Hey, Bill.
I would be willing to pay a monthly fee to keep this crazy place going if it can help.
If we all chip in a little, could this help?
What if we just dump the politics like the FC does?
I am really into the framing tech stuff and helping someone find a product or a discontinued moulding and showing design tips, etc.
Would everyone go away then?
I'm a 50 year framer so what do I know?...:oops::cool:
Just putting it out there.
 
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Joe B

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Hello Bill, I also would be willing to pay a monthly/annual fee or assist in another way that may be helpful to you. I would hate to see the Grumble go to the wayside because it is a great tool for us.
 

tedh

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Count me in.
Visa, Mastercard or EFT?
 

DVieau2

PFG, Picture Framing God
A new political season is upon us, I'm worried about the food fight to come.

I'm open to suggestions and help on all of the above if you want to keep theG.

Thanks for listening,

Bill
Thanks for what you do here.

I think the way you have manged Dogpile is brilliant and you have managed to keep the forum free of divisiveness which has engulfed most other areas of our life.

I would suggest Facebook groups are more political than Grumble.

If something political sneaks into the regular forum it's not the "end of the world" ( joke for the DP). Send them to DP.
 

Gilder

MGF, Master Grumble Framer
Fine. I'll pay a small fee, good people here.
 

cjmst3k

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
I'd pay a reasonable fee too. Though after finding "Underpinner!!" on FB its been a good real-time way to ask framers questions.
 

Rick Granick

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
I would also be willing to pay a fee if needed to keep the Grumble going. Thanks to Peter at 888 for his continuing sponsorship.
:cool: Rick
 

Bob Carter

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
i think Ron Eggers (how long have I been here?) tried, but let's put some talk into action.

I'll mail the first check for $25 just the moment we get a name and address. Not holding out much hope, but I could be surprised. over the years, I promise I have received $1000's worth of free advice

thanks, Bill
 
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shayla

WOW Framer
Good idea. Another option would be to crowd source the funding for these needs without requiring paid subscriptions. It'd be great if more corporate support could return, too.
 

Framar

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
I don't know much about business, but it seems to me that paying a yearly fee to support a framing forum would be a tax deductible expense, wouldn't it?

Good grief, I have contributed to many good causes on FB over the years - from the aged musicians who barely survived their last hurricane in Florida to the elderly dog who needed gall bladder surgery - oh, and then the cat who needed very expensive surgery to remove the plastic bra strap from his stomach.

These were all good people mentioning their problems and people jumped in with offers of financial assistance.

Check out the story of Esther the Wonder Pig - when she needed an MRI and the vet school (nor any place in all of Canada) did not have one large enough for her bulk, her fans from around the world all got together and bought a $500,000 MRI machine for large animals and they donated it to the vet school, with the only caveat that if a rescue organization needed it, it would be free.

Another thought: as they do on podcast and streaming services, everyone can utilize their products for free but if you pay a small fee, you get a perk of some kind.

Let's think about this, people! We are framers - we may not be magicians but we can do many things when it comes to being problem solvers.

Whatcha all think? Yes? No? Maybe?
 

prospero

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
I don't know much about business, but it seems to me that paying a yearly fee to support a framing forum would be a tax deductible expense, wouldn't it?
"Subscriptions to Professional Organisations.........[ ]"

:D

I'd be in it. ;):cool:
 

UzZx32QU

Administrator
Staff member
I'm listening... The problems are three fold.

Getting more sponsors or funding.

Getting new young members that participate .

Am I the person to run it or should I turn over the keys to a younger party.

Just a few things to ponder.

Bill
 

MnSue

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
I'm in for an annual fee!
I learned framing from 1) the grumble - where I could research then and still today ANYTHING
2) PFM magazine where I passionately read everything
and 3) a vintage LJ training manual which I coveted (and still have) from my days as a BEGINNER framer who was the Dept Mgr of a Big Box...
TG is a VALUABLE resource...
thanks to all who have, and continue to, be a part of TG, and
to BILL no words are enough for the appreciation for all you do...
Maybe set up a PayPal donation/fee payment link???
I'm in!
 

tedh

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
I sense that in the funding department, a lump sum and an ongoing fee would help, so let's think about both: I'm willing to fire off a lump sum contribution, and when an ongoing amount has been set, I see no problem with a monthly.

The G must go on.
 

Bob Carter

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
hven't seen an address yet? anybody know how to set up a GoFundMe acct?

years ago we set up a fund for a local framer severely hurt, lost his wife and daughter. We collected around $50K; about $20k from Grumblers. We were receiving so many checks we had to set up 501c through the kids elementary school

Many here are generous; they just need to know how and where

we know who and why:D
 

Ylva

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Bill, I think the funding can be arranged, judging by the reactions here. How much is needed? As in right now and on a continuing base.

As for younger framers to participate, that is always tricky. A lot of them don’t even know about the grumble. Doing a fundraiser would also allow everyone to share it on Facebook and maybe draw 8n more framers.

I think, if you are willing, that you should still be the one leading the crowd.
Maybe there are grumblers willing to become moderators? Just to help you. You would still have final say, as it should be.
 

Jim Miller

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
As one who probably spends more time here than i other forums, I hope to see a long and prosperous life for the G. Our industry needs a forum like this, because Facebook forums simply don't have the advantages, in my opinion.

If I were Bill, I would try to regenerate interest in this forum by asking the active members to promote it in other forums. For example, a lot of the questions asked in the Facebook forums have been answered here in greater detail than they are likely to receive in those forums. A quick reference to archives in the G might bring back some who have wandered away, and might inspire more newbies to join. Threads here have longevity and easily-accessible history.

Regarding funding, all contributions would probably be welcome, but that is unpredictable at best and uncertain at worst. So, I think sponsors under annual contract would probably be the best and most reliable source of funding.

And above all, I think the owner should take an active interest in the day-to-day operations of this forum. Establish a clear and routine presence, assign some moderators, make sure your contact information is unmistakably easy to find, and be quick to respond to all communications, whether they involve suggestions, comments, complaints, or just how-do-you-do greetings.
 

Ylva

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
I do agree Jim, but having a little experience with moderating in the past, it is extremely time consuming and frustrating. The dramas, the finger pointing, the endless complaints.
It is very difficult for one person to handle an active group or forum.

I don’t know all that has happened behind the scenes here, so my suggestion might be stupid. Would any of the previous moderators be willing to step back in, if that is even an option?
 

neilframer

PFG, Picture Framing God
I'm glad to see that my post back in post #68 has generated some interest in possibly helping Bill to continue to manage the Grumble.
I kind of wish that this site would just be for actual working framers banging out the framing, designing, cutting, joining, fitting and installing and that we can continue to add new folks with new ideas here.
 

FramerCat

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
If my count is right, that looks like about 9 People who said they would be willing to pay a monthly or annual fee to keep the Grumble going? Is that enough to support the forum both financially and with the participation necessary to keep all 9 of the remaining members satisfied? I really don't think a mandatory or even suggested fee is a good idea. I'm not an expert though. How did things work out for that other framing forum that required participants to be paid members? I haven't been over there in forever. Are they more or less active than the Grumble?

Ed
 

Jim Miller

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
hate to see someone like Jim Miller excluded. Experience is pretty valuable
For the record, I'm still an active framer. My framing business was sold in 2015, but I still help the new owner on occasion, and work a day or two a week in other shops. Also, I'm still teaching, writing, and now making educational videos. Here's a project I completed this week...
Photo-1-Willie Nelson Hat.jpg


Thanks for the kind words Bob, but I think Neilframer's comments are well-intended and have merit. Maybe I'm mistaken, but the trouble-makers seem to be the ones least helpful to others in terms of framing participation; asking/answering questions and taking/giving advice. Also, it's reasonable to emphasize participation related to framing and business matters. Sometimes daily minutia dominates the conversation; does it matter if the window washer didn't show up or the Shop Vac bit the dust yesterday?

The demise of the Grumble moderators is a mystery, but as I recall, that's about the time when the decline of this forum hit home, and down it went. Just guessing, it seems likely that a lot of Grumblers abandoned the forum thinking that if there's dissension in leadership or a revolt among the moderators, then there must be serious problems here and it's time to try some of those shiny new Facebook forums.

I've never been a moderator, so I'm not qualified to judge on any level. However, clear rules and universally-applied discipline probably should help to keep everyone in line. And in most cases, transparent discipline seems to be a good idea. On several occasions in several forums, posts and entire conversations have simply disappeared without explanation. In my experience, that's a bad idea, because it gives no lesson to others about the reasoning behind moderator action.

Personally, negative comments in the past have not discouraged me; they come with the territory. Insults and name-calling serve no constructive purpose and, in my opinion, deserve some sort of discipline, but reasoned arguments can be beneficial if they are intended to help, since that's a good way to learn.
 
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UzZx32QU

Administrator
Staff member
Jim,
You really nailed it. Sponsorship funding is what is needed for TheG to continue long term. I've never told anyone until today what happened to the moderators. The straw that broke my back was when they demanded I ban Paul Casio of American Picture Frame Academy. I refused to be bullied and they quit. It's also the reason I never replaced them as I didn't want to get in that situation again. The moderators seemed to be wanting anyone not politically correct to be banned. That how I saw the situation. I'm sure they saw it from a different perspective.

Bill
 

Meghan MacMillan

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
I was a many times daily Grumbler for a LOT of years. My enjoyment dropped away during a flurry of particularly divisive political posts. I have stayed away mostly out of fear that aspect likely hasn't improved. It hasn't in my non-Grumble life.

I've made many enduring friendships through the forum and prefer the format to newer social media.
 

Mike Labbe

Member, Former moderator team volunteer
Jim,
You really nailed it. Sponsorship funding is what is needed for TheG to continue long term. I've never told anyone until today what happened to the moderators. The straw that broke my back was when they demanded I ban Paul Casio of American Picture Frame Academy. I refused to be bullied and they quit. It's also the reason I never replaced them as I didn't want to get in that situation again. The moderators seemed to be wanting anyone not politically correct to be banned. That how I saw the situation. I'm sure they saw it from a different perspective.

Bill
From my perspective, we all quit on good and friendly terms out of pure frustration. The G went through a period of extreme (both left/right) politics and personal attacks, which consumed it. (it has since moved to a section called DOGPILE, and calmed down as most of the hate talk/memes moved over to Facebook) The mod team was tasked to respond to each and every private complaint/report received, and I think we were very fair about it. We were extremely (too?) lenient, and I think maybe there were only TWO(?) people that got permbanned over all those years. (In comparison, I believe one of the Facebook groups permbanned 3 members in just the past few days) We discussed any complaints/reports received as a group, and included Bill in those discussions. We donated a great deal of personal time/expense to the task, taking a lot of abuse from people demanding action, and didn't ask for compensation. There were some "Frequent Flyers" who would dish out vicious personal attacks against other members, and get a tactful private message or even one with short term/temporary ban. There were a few who did this regularly, and one in particular who could do what he wanted as a personal friend of the owner. I respect that the forum belongs to Bill, so he can do what he wants of course. A phone call to the owner would reverse the group's decision. It was too time consuming to be putting out the same fire repeatedly, and we expressed this concern to the owner. Since this prevented us from being effective, and invalidated the job, we collectively and respectfully decided to move on. I believe I was probably the last one to leave, and it wasn't on bad terms. My admin access remained at least 6 months after that time, and has since been removed.

To this day, I still get regular emails asking for support to get through the login question or how to use the forum, because people cant seem to get through by email.

I'm still an active member and a firm believer in the forum. I consider Bill a personal friend as well. I really don't care for the format on Facebook, and the lack of categories and search feature. I hope that this great resource is around for many more generations of framers, and find myself searching for things from old posts regularly.

Proud to be a grumbler,
Mike
 

Pat Murphey

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
I was a many times daily Grumbler for a LOT of years. My enjoyment dropped away during a flurry of particularly divisive political posts. I have stayed away mostly out of fear that aspect likely hasn't improved. It hasn't in my non-Grumble life.

I've made many enduring friendships through the forum and prefer the format to newer social media.
A fair number left because of that, but for quite a while The Grumble has been reconfigured to put all of that into a private volunteer only "Dogpile" and Warped is now a place for pleasant banter.
 

Framar

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
I was late to computers, and had only been online for a brief time when I joined the G in 2001. I never designated a
"homepage" or a "Newsgroup" - I had the G and I never logged out for years on end. It was a golden age, as far as I am concerned - and friends made here are friends for life. I still grieve for Charles and Don and Dannyboy. Even though I do not attend conventions, I have met a number of Grumblers in real life - heck the Grumble started me on the road to editing thanks to Brother Baer, and I hope to be able to do editing if I ever talk myself into retiring.

LONG LIVE THE GRUMBLE!
 

Framar

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Bill, several people over on the threads I started on FB are mentioning that they only have access to the Internet through their phones and that the Grumble is not phone-friendly or in some cases accessible at all. Could this problem be solved with a bit of tweaking? I know I had to make my website "phone friendly."
 
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