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Where has all the Grumblers gone

Framar

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Someone on FB just asked if there was a smartphone app for the Grumble. Since I do not have a smartphone I know nothings about apps. Is that something that could be included or added to the G? Does that cost a bunch? If so, maybe we could take up a collection.
 

HangingAroundHoover

MGF, Master Grumble Framer
Mar, I just checked and I haven't been on The Grumble since 2015. The formula used to go: 1: Someone would post a question, 2: four responses in someone else would say something nasty, 3: old grudges and animosity would come bubbling to the surface, and 4: I'd leave wondering why adults continued to act so childishly toward each other. I'm glad you directed us back to the Grumble, and I'm hoping people have mellowed over the years. Business is stressful enough, why would we want a front row seat to a grudge match between feuding framers? Bill, thank you for keeping the ship a float and allowing us to use this wonderful repository of framing knowledge.
 

Joe B

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
1: Someone would post a question, 2: four responses in someone else would say something nasty, 3: old grudges and animosity would come bubbling to the surface, and 4: I'd leave wondering why adults continued to act so childishly toward each other.
That was a problem at one time, things have changed and it is enjoyable to speak to people an get new ideas and answers without the nasty comments. It still happens now and then but in a whole different area.
 

Ylva

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Mar, I just checked and I haven't been on The Grumble since 2015. The formula used to go: 1: Someone would post a question, 2: four responses in someone else would say something nasty, 3: old grudges and animosity would come bubbling to the surface, and 4: I'd leave wondering why adults continued to act so childishly toward each other. I'm glad you directed us back to the Grumble, and I'm hoping people have mellowed over the years. Business is stressful enough, why would we want a front row seat to a grudge match between feuding framers? Bill, thank you for keeping the ship a float and allowing us to use this wonderful repository of framing knowledge.
True enough, but I see that same thing in the Facebook groups. The only difference is, those posts are deleted or disappear when new posts come up.

I do believe people here have mellowed as all the inflaming political posts are contained in the dogpile.
Plus not many participating, although this thread gives me hope
 

Jim Miller

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Bill, several people over on the threads I started on FB are mentioning that they only have access to the Internet through their phones and that the Grumble is not phone-friendly or in some cases accessible at all. Could this problem be solved with a bit of tweaking? I know I had to make my website "phone friendly."
Mar, for what it's worth, I'm a complete dunce when it comes to computers, smartphones, social media, forums, and internet technology. However, I check the Grumble every morning using my Android smartphone. Personally, I find navigating the G easier than sifting through all the fluff on the Facebook forums - especially on my phone.
 

Jim Miller

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
I do believe people here have mellowed as all the inflaming political posts are contained in the dogpile.
Yes, that is true. And even there, as always, you can count the incessant flamethrowers on one hand. Most others simply react to provocation and do not constantly stir trouble.
 

Framar

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
So here are the impressions I am getting from the young'uns on FaceBook as to why they have not participated or will not participate in the Grumble:

Some young women (I am assuming they are not anywhere close to my age at any rate) complain about general rudeness, politics, and mansplaining. *headdesk*

Many people are mentioning the difficulty of using the G on smart phones, iPhones, and handheld devices (which are all pretty much the same I think).
 

i-FRAMER

MGF, Master Grumble Framer
I must have missed all the commotion. But then again that's what i like about the grumble. I only click and participation threads i am interested in, which is predominantly are about running your business. Even though i am a picture framer i have no interest at looking at what somebody framed or cooked for dinner. And i certainly don't look at threads that are political or religious - both are a no go zone for me. Which is why i like the format of the G. I can see the topics and choose what i want to view. Where as FB you got to scroll through or even start to read some posts to see if it is of interest. Time consuming even though i still actively participate on them.
 

tedh

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Yes, that is true. And even there, as always, you can count the incessant flamethrowers on one hand. Most others simply react to provocation and do not constantly stir trouble.
"Flamethrowers"! Now that's really hitting the nail on the head! I'm still laughing!!
 

prospero

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
My exp with Facebook....

I've been on some groups that are like the monkey house at the zoo. Fun is one thing, infantile squabbling is another.
But some groups are well run and have a zero-tolerance to politics, bad language and personal abuse. I'm a big Dad's Army
fan and that group is very well run. One mention of Brex*t and you're out. o_O

But it's a very ephemeral thing. More for brief chit-chat and a ready-made soapbox for trolls.

And there's no formatting the text. Or using colors to express certain nuances like sarcasm.

There is a better selection of :);):(:mad::confused::cool::p:D:eek::oops::rolleyes:o_Os though.
 

Jim Miller

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Some young women (I am assuming they are not anywhere close to my age at any rate) complain about general rudeness, politics, and mansplaining. *headdesk*
Hmmm. Maybe it's an age thing. I guess most of us still here are "mature adults" (to put it kindly), but it would seem that those who migrated to Facebook forums from here probably communicate just as they always did here. I'm confused.
 

wpfay

Angry Badger
Yes, Bill, we do see that episode differently.

I see it more like what Mike stated, but my real frustration grew out of having any meaningful access to moderation after the software upgrade. We were Moderators in name only, and could do little to effect anything that was going on. The G was spiraling down into a political morass and the Moderators were the faces and names associated with that. One of the driving forces in the decision to resign was, as business owners, we no longer wanted to be the poster children for the political p***ing match that the G had become.

For a couple political cycles the mods had been allowed to keep political posts in check, and with the new software, we had no access to do so. When Dog Pile was first established on the open forum (as a subforum of Warped Moulding) before taking it to the private groups, was pretty much our straw back-breaking moment. We expressed our concern directly and after 6 weeks of no response, we resigned.

It was an interesting 10 year ride, and I have no regrets and hold no grudges. It's good to see that the forum has returned to being a more welcoming place.
As far as paid memberships are concerned, I have my doubts as to getting the critical mass necessary. Sponsorship is more stable, but sponsors are becoming fewer and harder to convince throughout the industry. I also think that the efforts to appeal to younger framers is mostly a challenge the industry as a whole is facing. We are not found lacking in the challenges department.

IMHO: Going forward I don't think Moderators will be needed. What is needed are a couple volunteer Assistant Admins to help people join up, remember their password, and direct traffic to the proper forum.
 

Framar

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Well, here's a new complaint about the Grumble.

From a young woman:

"I refuse to join a group with a name like the Grumble. I dont care how much great info I may be missing. It's always been a terrible name. Pass."

LOL
 

Larry Peterson

PFG, Picture Framing God
Well, here's a new complaint about the Grumble.

From a young woman:

"I refuse to join a group with a name like the Grumble. I dont care how much great info I may be missing. It's always been a terrible name. Pass."

LOL
A sucker An idiot is born every minute.
 

bruce papier

MGF, Master Grumble Framer
Funny, I'm so Techno-Amish I never considered looking at Facebook for framing stuff. Facebook kind of gives me the creeps. It seems so egocentric. That and I don't think the Grumble could tell advertisers what type of underwear I wear.
 

prospero

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
I think The Grumble is a brilliant name. It was one of the things that encouraged me to join in the first place. :D

I hope I have lived up to the ethos. Nothing like a good old grumble. :)
 

Ylva

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
So here are the impressions I am getting from the young'uns on FaceBook as to why they have not participated or will not participate in the Grumble:

Some young women (I am assuming they are not anywhere close to my age at any rate) complain about general rudeness, politics, and mansplaining. *headdesk*

Many people are mentioning the difficulty of using the G on smart phones, iPhones, and handheld devices (which are all pretty much the same I think).
I am using it on my iPad without a problem. I can’t even imagine doing this on a phone. Way too small! Lol

General rudeness? That is everywhere, even in the ladies group. Don’t see that much on here really. Political post are all contained in different section, unlike Facebook.
 

FramerCat

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
I am using it on my iPad without a problem. I can’t even imagine doing this on a phone. Way too small! Lol

General rudeness? That is everywhere, even in the ladies group. Don’t see that much on here really. Political post are all contained in different section, unlike Facebook.
I'm using my phone right now. It's not too bad, but I also use my tablet and the desktops at the shop.

There was a time when things would get pretty contentious here. I think some people were afraid to even post questions because some of the experts could get pretty rude with their answers, and seriously talked down to people, but I haven't seen that in a very long time.

Ed
 

Ylva

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
I'm using my phone right now. It's not too bad, but I also use my tablet and the desktops at the shop.

There was a time when things would get pretty contentious here. I think some people were afraid to even post questions because some of the experts could get pretty rude with their answers, and seriously talked down to people, but I haven't seen that in a very long time.

Ed
True enough, but you see the same thing happen on Facebook, with a lot more hissy fits and drama.

I simply like the format of a forum better. It is nicely organized and I don’t have to wade through a ton of carp first
 

Larry Peterson

PFG, Picture Framing God
theG works fine on my phone, although best in Landscape mode. It will resize or stretched so it can be viewed easily. Works fine on my tablets as well. But its still best on my 32" 4k monitor.
 

prospero

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
The thing is with written conversations is the lack of visual information. Body Language if you like. Without this the meaning
of a remark can be misinterpreted and certain people don't seem to read the subtext and get very offended. This can lead to
extreme abusive exchanges. "Flaming" I believe is the term. This is why :Ds are useful. They're more than just frivolities. ;)
 

j Paul

PFG, Picture Framing God
Back when I started framing in 2003 or 2004, I have to say I learned so much from this group and will be forever indebted. Glad to see some of the old familiar name are still around. I agree that with the rise of FB and the almost immediate response rate that I spend more time in the groups there.
Also a few years back here on the Grumble, the moderators left and things seemed to have fell a part. Don't know if they are back or there is a new team now. Frankly I only think to check in here once in a while any more.
 

RoboFramer

PFG, Picture Framing God
There are many things I learned from here; things that work, things that solve problems so easily, things that impress, that I have still yet to see in a trade magazine in UK - or a forum for that matter, unless it was me that brought it to it. I don't read every single thing that happens in the UK trade of course, so I could be wrong.

The first time I read about dark fading in a UK trade mag was this year, on TFG it was in 2003!



.
 

Pat Murphey

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Minimal moderation by Bill has been all that's necessary since the "naughty" stuff is over on the private, volunteer Dogpile.
 

couture's gallery

PFG, Picture Framing God
I check in on occasion to see if old ( REALLY OLD LIKE ME) friends are still kicking. I do FB on car club, hot rods etc ( there are many, many out there. Since I no longer frame but still tinker with my car hobbies most of my time is spent on car sites.
 

tedh

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
So if I don't follow FB, what have I missed?
 

Larry Peterson

PFG, Picture Framing God
I just checked this list of most prolific posters. Out of the top 20, 7 are no longer around.
 

prospero

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Yes. There used to be a prodigious plethora of people with a positive propensity for persistent prolific posting. :rolleyes:
 

tedh

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Just can't figure out Facebook and its sequential nature. Not bad for a short-attention-span guy like me, but the ADD in me calls for multiple ongoing topics.
 

wvframer

MGF, Master Grumble Framer
I haven't been checking in as often. I got insulted one time too many, and stopped posting as much, then kind of drifted away,

I look in on most of the FB groups once in a while, but rarely have much to say there. I notice that some of the folks who put me off the G aren't here much anymore. Most of their troublemaking is happening on FB where presumably they have a much wider audience. Some of the drama makes me wonder if "professional" should be used to describe those posting.

I see some very dubious framing advice on these FB groups and wonder why anyone would trust a medium known to be full of false "facts" and misinformation with something so important as their business and reputation. The advice never seems to have a citation to a book or even a website. If you know the poster well then it is ok, but otherwise, it is difficult to know.

Not always by any means, but sometimes the advice given there seems dangerous to the art and the reputation of the framer receiving it. I would feel the need to verify anything I read there, which would probably bring me back here or to the PPFA Framers Corner, so why not just start at one of these?

If the number of posts is indicative of how "expert" the poster is, then we have some dubious experts developing there.

Despite its flaws and the lack of in-your-face immediacy, IMHO the bulletin board format makes more sense for serious framers. The advice given here has been tested by multiple framers, and someone will always pipe up if somebody makes a mistake in giving advice. (Most of the time they will be nice). The search alone is worth a library of books.

I hope we figure out a way to save this valuable resource. I am going to try to check in more often rather than waiting until I need something.
 

framah

PFG, Picture Framing God
Can we insult you once again, please?

Just for old times sake???:shutup:

I mean come on... you're from West Virginia, right?? What's not to insult?:faintthud::beer:
 

Bob Carter

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
I got insulted one time too many
i hear you; same here. Always thought Ellen Collins had it right about 'take what you can use; ignore the rest'

can't tell you the numbers of times I expressed pretty simple, common biz practices and got some serious pushback. still, a great resource
 

wpfay

Angry Badger
Well, as far as I know, we're not the commodity here that we all are on Facebook. That and 40% o the page isn't devoted to marketing.
The current turf war on Facebook for framing education isn't the industry's finest hour, but that might be to The Grumble's advantage.
:popc:
 

wvframer

MGF, Master Grumble Framer
Can we insult you once again, please?

Just for old times sake???:shutup:

I mean come on... you're from West Virginia, right?? What's not to insult?:faintthud::beer:
See, now you know how to insult a person!

I have toughened up considerably in my old age. And I have also learned who to listen to and who to ignore. And though it felt personal at the time, I know now it wasn't. These folks insulted and attacked all members equally every time they got the chance. I am glad they have discovered Facebook.
 

Ylva

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
The number of posts is just that, a number. It doesn’t reflect on framing qualifications, just how active one is on the forum.
There are now so many framing groups on Facebook and more in the making that it is confusing. Not all framers are in every group.not everyone is active in the same groups.
Most everyone started out on the G
There are a lot of newbies in the groups and I cringe when they are being given advise that is contradictory to framing and conservation.
The Grumble, and I love the name, was my home as a newbie framer and I’m happy to be part of this community.
A lot of the snarkiness is gone from here. It never bothered me too much and diffusing is very easy to do without becoming insulting.
 

RoboFramer

PFG, Picture Framing God
The current turf war on Facebook for framing education isn't the industry's finest hour, but that might be to The Grumble's advantage.
I left the two main F Book groups because of this and have stopped participating in another (Non F Book) group due to constant discussion about these groups, particular members of them and particular members of other fora and of framing trade bodies. I have severely culled my F Book friends list and intend to eventually use F Book only for our business page(s). The internet in general has taken up far too much of my life for too long and I'm already finding better things to do.

The Grumble stays though. Viva la Grumble!

..
 

wvframer

MGF, Master Grumble Framer
Bob, that stuff just rolls off of me now. But when I was a newbie the stuff that was said among other members made me reluctant to post for fear of igniting their ire. The direct insults I experienced were pretty mild looking back on it.
 
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