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Why did you leave PPFA? What would bring you back?

Discussion in 'The Grumble' started by Paul Cascio, Feb 19, 2013.

  1. johnny

    johnny SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    I don't think it's anyone's job.

    Everyone is a volunteer. No one is responsible. You have to really be a self starter.

    So I think it's a combined problem of perception and communication.
  2. osgood

    osgood SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Great thinking, Rob. Of course that would mean that more members would need to get off their butts and volunteer to do something within the organisation, rather than sitting back in their frame shops waiting impatiently for "THEM" to do what needs to be done.

    You just have to read some of the stories on this thread to see that the common issue is a lack of people doing what needs to be done to make a chapter successful. There has got to be some truth in it!

    It's very satisfying to voluntarily do stuff for the organisation. You do get more out of being a member when you participate!
  3. j Paul

    j Paul PFG, Picture Framing God

    Or at the very least an autogenerated welcome email.
  4. Emibub

    Emibub PFG, Picture Framing God

    We always had somebody in charge of welcoming new members. We even took the time to visit new members with a welcome packet. We visited non-member shops. We called or visited new shops. We encouraged new or non-members to attend an event as our guest. Of course that was when we had 7 active board members and a handful of people in the background taking on random tasks. The chapters run on volunteers efforts. An overwhelmed chapter leader with little to no help probably needs volunteers more than a lesson in social skills. It's hard in the trenches and people burn out fast without support. Plus running their own business's.

    Our chapter leader here continued to handle I'd say 90% of the chapter duties until she finally got out by moving away. Even I was not supporting her at the time because I was closing my shop and was bogged down with other issues.

    Nicole, why don't you suss the situation out. Call national and find out which chapter you belong to. Maybe dig around and find out the condition of the board. You shouldn't have to welcome yourself but I'm willing to bet you will find people stretched too thin and running out of steam. Maybe offer some support. You don't have to join a board or anything, just offer to help. Offer to be the official welcome committee agreeing to send out a welcome packet or make a phone call to new members. It really is that easy. Come on, Just Do it!

    I whined a lot here on the G because we had no local chapter. Then somebody I think it was John Raines messaged me and told me to quit whining and start a chapter. He was right. So I started the process. Somehow there happened to be enough like minded people at the time who wanted to get involved.
  5. Cliff Wilson

    Cliff Wilson SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    While Pres in New England, I called every new member when I got the New Member list.
    The new member list is mailed out after each quarter.

    That means if you joined, say in January, I wouldn't even get your name and phone number until April.

    I don't know if the calling has continued, sinse I am not getting the lists anymore. I think so.

    Not all chapters make the phone calls though. It's very much up to who is operating the chapter and whether they've set anything up to do it.
  6. blackiris

    blackiris SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    I'm not a board member...and I didn't join to be a board member.Nor will I have time for about 16 more years to put into JUST framing. But you can honestly see why people are confused about the group. The ONLY way people know about it is if they are on the G or friends with someone in a chapter.

    If needing more help is what the big issue is.... and why framers fall thru the crack.... than those chapters should be ASKING FOR HELP....... right?

    Are there not bylaws and stuff on how to run a chapter?
  7. Joe B

    Joe B SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    OK - I've been a member since this chapter started. I was able to make the first years meeting but since then the meetings have all been scheduled in conflict with something else or at a location that I will not support. I guess that I am not to happy with this chapter for several reasons and this will more than likely be the last year that I will be a member - heck, I still don't have my 2014 PPFA window sticker and I paid my dues over 4 months ago.
  8. wvframer

    wvframer MGF, Master Grumble Framer

    I am disappointed that some have had less-than-good experiences as new members. There are a lot of reasons why things don't work the way they appear they should. But 2 things that every new member should hear about right away is the location of the website and how to find things like the Code of Ethics, Chapters & their contact lists, and bylaws. Another is the Framers Corner where you can learn the answers to most of the questions I have seen here.

    Chapters are completely volunteer driven. All it takes is for a sudden cold or a sick child for the person designated to be the greeter not to make it to an event, then everyone else is so busy doing their volunteer job that the event is over before anyone notices that there wasn't anyone at the door to be welcoming. Not an excuse, and it doesn't make it right. But we are picture framers, not event specialists. We mess up, we get up, and we try to do better next time.

    I can't think of a single chapter that wouldn't jump for joy if they received a call or email asking how to become a part of things. If you are feeling overlooked, it really isn't intentional. There are fewer framers and therefore members than there used to be. Those who have been at it a while are tired. There aren't many folks around to jump in and pick up the slack when things go awry. Even if you are too busy to take on a project or committee, just being the one at the door that says hi and offers to answer questions is providing a valuable service to both the chapter and its visitors. Making a few phone calls a month might propel a chapter to success. There are lots of jobs that don't involve sustained commitment and the weight ongoing responsibility.

    Communication weakness seems to be a consistent theme. But if you can accept that, take the next step and reach out to a chapter, your chances of entering into some rewarding relationships increases greatly. (And if that doesn't work, you should call the national office). It is an old saw, but paying your dues only opens the door. You have to choose to take the next steps.
  9. Paul Cascio

    Paul Cascio SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    I'm really glad to see how open people have been about their experience with PPFA, and I hope others will step forward to share their's. I'm equally pleased at the amount of genuine interest the comments have received.
  10. Terry Scidmore CPF

    Terry Scidmore CPF MGF, Master Grumble Framer

    I try to follow one of our members mantra's - "you get out of something pretty much what you are willing to put into it" (Nancy Chapman - 1998 - volunteering to be our membership person)

    We have had a long standing "chapter" of some sort in my area since the 1970's. It has operated as an independent organization, a PPFA chapter, and a blended PPFA chapter/independent. We have been quite successful at times when 1)there were a lot of frame shops operating in a reasonable sized area to accommodate traveling to meetings, 2)a large active pool of volunteers who volunteered without the expectation they should receive compensation, 3)a fair number of suppliers, vendors, and sales reps who have been supportive of the organization with volunteer time, financial support, and support of chapter activities, 4)a large number of members who were in an age group where they were not caring for children, were often framers as an after retirement second career, and often had secondary incomes so framing was not their only income, 5)a large number of members who liked having a locally run organization, and 6)luck in having some boards jell and work well together.

    In the "olden days", most of our members became members because they were invited to a chapter meeting as the guest of another member - many of the inviting members were sales reps who sought out nonmembers in their shop visits and made a point of inviting a nonmember to each monthly meeting. (In our heyday, we had monthly meetings, bimonthly board meetings, a monthly newsletter, a lending library, and a large education festival. We also had members and nonmembers who complained we didn't offer enough.)

    I rejoined the national PPFA several times - most recently out of curiosity what the organization is up to. I think the WCAF/PPFA combined pass is a great benefit. Otherwise, I have never found the PPFA benefits to be much, but I do believe it is good for the industry to have a national organization and am willing to support that.

    I have never heard from the chapter I belong to (it is in another state). I met the chapter president at an educational function in that state. The comment was "oh, I'll have to remember to contact national to be sure we are getting our money for you. How long did you say you have belonged? I want to be sure we get our money for all of the time you have belonged."

    Locally, our "chapter" is trying vidoconferencing, blogs, all the young people stuff. The jury is still out on whether an organization can be built on never physically meeting.

    I agree with Johnny when he wrote - " everyone is a volunteer. you really have to be a self starter".

    More true today than ever.
  11. Emibub

    Emibub PFG, Picture Framing God

    Yeah, I wasn't suggesting you work on the board. Just thought it would be interesting to do a little sleuthing around to find out whats going on with the chapter. Honestly, since this thread has been here a couple days I'm surprised nobody has contacted you yet.
  12. Bob Carter

    Bob Carter SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Perhaps Paul may know this; I do not

    In the highpoint of membership, what was the percentage of members to all framers?

    What is it today?

    Comparing similar small 'mom & pop' businesses is that percentage greater or smaller than PPFA?

    For example

    If there were 25000 framers in 1980 and 2500 were PPFA members that would reflect 10% of the trade.

    Using whatever benchmark that might be how does that compare to small, independent:
    Car Wash Operators
    Photo Retailers
    Sporting Goods Stores

    or any other trade that has seen shopping patterns take their impact on individual operators?

    Lots of folks leave because they simply can't afford the dues ( a really small pct on your Statement of Income). Perhaps if the trade was growing and thriving, membership would be higher. With higher membership comes more bucks. With morebucks comes more benefits and services. With more benefits comes more....well, you get it

    The key really is who can herd all these kittens into the same direction to grow the industry back to those lofty 80's days

    I'm sure there is are a few candidates here that can fill that bill LOL

    I am/was a big fan of PPFA. They are no better/no worse than the industry.

    Not sure anybody might argue that the industry would be much better if there were no PPFA, is there?

    Bottom line: It is as good as it's membership and their revenue. Would not surprise me if they weren't as viable as a whole lot of other ma & pa biz trade associations
  13. Paul Cascio

    Paul Cascio SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Bob, those are good questions (although I personally don't care how we compare to butchers, etc). Maybe in another thread we could discuss those things, but my guess is that the attrition rate for PPFA is alarmingly high, and membership is disproportionately low to the size of the industry, which is why I'm encouraging people to speak up and tell us why they left, and what will bring them back. Then, maybe interpretation and analysis can occur later by those who are interested.
  14. Cassetta

    Cassetta CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2

    Our company has been a member since the beginning of PPFA ,I have been active off and on depending
    On available time . I am very busy now but, also am very active on the board of our chapter because
    I believe this is a very important time in the industry. The reason everyone involved in picture framing
    should join has been said over and over in many discussions.PPFA IS THE ONE AND ONLY TRADE ASSOCIATION . Imagine the changes that could happen if everyone joined and participated.
  15. Cliff Wilson

    Cliff Wilson SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Interesting assumptions.

    I haven't tried to do an analysis for a couple of years, and don't have the specific numbers anymore, so it's from memory, but the "attrition rate" for PPFA was considerably smaller than the apparent attrition rate of the industry. Draw your own conclusions.

    In recent years it's been harder and harder to get even estimated numbers for frameshops in the US, so penetration rates are primarily anecdotal which means you usually think what your friends think. My personal biased opinion is that PPFA has a lower percentage membership of the trade than most vibrant and growing industries, but a higher percentage than most troubled industries.

    Based on conversations with the businesses here in my city, PPFA has more to offer than most of the trade associations they belong to for considerably less money.

    Thanks for starting the thread.
  16. pwalters

    pwalters SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    We were a member quite some time ago. Why did we stop? Because I didn't have the time. Shame on me.

    If it was something so compelling that I made the time or couldn't imagine dropping out, I might not have. Shame on them.

    Now, here is a thought. I think that if I were the PPFA I would approach Tru-Vue or LJ or Bainbridge or Crescent and partner with them to have them sponsor each of their customers for a free membership. This would have to be discounted by the PPFA so that the vendors could have it but I think that I would be more willing to start to dig in if my LJ rep or someone from TV sent me a communication saying that they appreciate my business and have sponsored me for a trial membership in the PPFA and here is information about your local chapter and upcoming events.

    Then as another push, the PPFA should have some major area things going on in the places where it makes the most sense. Go with a bang, get as much participation as you can and then deliver the goods.

    I would also reach out as the PPFA and have my other vendor partners bring something to the party.
  17. Paul Cascio

    Paul Cascio SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    There's a wealth of ideas in your post that have the potential to get some wheels turning.
  18. Baer Charlton

    Baer Charlton SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    I like the "sponsorship" idea.

    Buy 10 boxes of ConClear - - get a free membership for a year.

    Buy into Life Saver and get a free membership for a year.

    Buy 5 boxes of moulding and get a free membership for a year.

    Buy in bulk from vendors... and be a free member.

    Vendors could even have punch cards.... fill the card and they fill your PPFA account.
  19. RParrish

    RParrish PFG, Picture Framing God

    I still don't see the incentive to participate, it doesn't give you any free time to go to meetings. A free membership, as I see if would give you even less drive to be a part of something. By the way Nelson's Moulding gave away about two dozen memberships at their seminars around the country. Buying a member, is like paying for "likes" on Facebook, they are meaningless.

    I have a lot of ideas, however if anyone wants to know, I'll be posting them on Framer's Corner, for the members only, where it might do some real good.
  20. 2 many hats

    2 many hats Grumbler in Training

    I am a hugh believer that if you join an organization you get the very most out of it by participating and volunteering for the group. But, with that said, I don't see how to apply that philosophy to my membership in PPFA. The meetings & activities for my area are 3 hours away. But even with that I tried....but it isn't realistic driving 6 hours for an hour or so event.
    I remain a member but it is a difficult invoice to pay, and each year I say it will be my last.

  21. RParrish

    RParrish PFG, Picture Framing God

    Does your chapter always have meeting in the same spot? If so they should vary them, our chapter tries to have them around the state. Is there are another chapter with closer events? Your more than welcome to attend there as well, ask to be on their mailing list. Tell them you would like to be involve on the chapter's board of directors, at the very least you would be include in the planning as a "Member at large". I believe every member should have access to the member directory of your chapter, so that you might at least find other like minded professional framer to confer with.

    Just last week I had PPFA member contact me about a job that was coming to their shop, they had some questions about it, something was not right to them. The order was for 30 shiny gold frames! They had no idea there where scams happing to framers!

    The bottom line is if you pay to be a member get involved, it will be worth it. Nobody attends college and expects the knowledge or good times that can be had to be handed to them. If you go to school you have to buy the books, go to class, do your home work. Every organizational is like this. The PPFA is not a private country club where you pay and get go golfing or have pool access.

    Thank You Susan for your years of membership!!!!!!!!!
  22. EMcBride

    EMcBride SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    My chapter has been having people Skype in. My drive is an hour and a half, which is nothing compared to some. But it sure makes sense. We had it at the last meeting, and it worked great.
  23. DarthFramer

    DarthFramer CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2

    Short trip!

    I have a lot of ideas, however if anyone wants to know, I'll be posting them on Framer's Corner, for the members only, where it might do some real good.

    That trip lasted 15 minutes.
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2013
  24. pwalters

    pwalters SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    But if the PPFA was smart, they would push this idea for a massive swell of membership, partner with vendors/merchants/others for some special offers that really are worthwhile to the membership and ride the wave. Then as a member, seeing that there is value, many people would use this renewed interest to see what else is available to them. If there are good enough benefits, then there will be a compelling reason to stay beyond it being a social club. I've got friends that I don't see enough, I don't need more time spent kibbitzing (sp?).

    As for posting them on the Framers Corner where it might do some good and your slams on Paul C - be careful it doesn't sound too much like you taking your toys and going home. Not very welcoming IMO.
  25. RParrish

    RParrish PFG, Picture Framing God

    Last things first, yes it was not the wisest statement, which I do admit and offer my apology for sounding that way. We all are sometime guilty of posting before we speak.

    1. As far as giving away the membership, I stand behind my reasoning in my response your quote "Buying a member, is like paying for "likes" on Facebook, they are meaningless..." It has been discussed, I myself offered that idea up two years ago to our chapter, it sounds great, but it simply does not give you a participating member, which is what is needed in a volunteer organization.

    2. The membership if bought by a vendor, PPFA is then in the pocket of the vendor, not the member who invested, and the PPFA/chapters do follow what the members want. Imagine the backlash on the G if certain companies propped up the membership with free dues, and what about framers or home framers that did not do business with that company?

    3. One idea I have, and Cliff already has done this in his chapter, is for a "welcoming package" with vouchers/coupons from vendors that would equal (give or take some) the cost of membership. So, "X- Company" will give $20 off coupon, Y -company $ 5 pack of mat board" money a framer would be spending anyways, but now their membership just got them a deal. As in point 2. you might not do business with all the companies but most likely you would still get a great deal.

    4. Don't forget most meeting have good deal of door prizes just for coming, I have been to some where everyone walked away with a door prize. A case of foam core or glass would make your trip to a chapter meeting free!
  26. DarthFramer

    DarthFramer CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2

    Great Idea!

    R, After thinking about it, both number 3 and 4 are great ideas. #3 can be a win win for PPFA members and vendors. #4 our local hospital support meetings do the same thing - some may get the flowers off the table but everyone gets a ambulence stress relief squeeze ball. People actually collect the little things they give out! Guess who's name is on each item? Another example, a recent thread
    contained many thank-you note posts for the special measuring tape given out at LV. :thumbsup:
  27. Myrna

    Myrna CGF, Certified Grumble Framer

    Would this event bring you back?

    The Cascade Chapter is in the process of preparing an event that we believe will encourage membership. We are not a big chapter, but we have a lot of enthusiasm and believe in the PPFA. In June our speaker is Jim Miller. The day will involve 3 classes, a lite breakfast and lunch. The classes for a non member are $45 each plus lunch for $20. For anyone who joins PPFA on that day, the entire day including membership is a cost of only $100. So basically for the price of a new PPFA membership, the entire day of education and camaraderie is only $100.

    Over the years I have seen examples of amazing picture frame design at the competitions, on the grumble, and on Framers Corner. The PPFA is OUR organization and I believe in a group of individuals that works to pursue the excellence of framing. Without the knowledge they have provided throughout the years I know my skills would not be where they are today.
  28. Less

    Less SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    More for Less

    I was a member for a number of years when I first got started. Seemed like the right thing to do. There is no way I have time to travel to meetings, never mind trade shows or lectures. I did not see the value. I equate it to advertising. If it will not pay back at least the membership fee, then what is the point?

    What would motivate Less to join again? They would have to show me that they can help drive business to me or save me money in some way. I have no issues finding educational materials, great insurance rates, credit card processing and I have been able to negotiate good pricing from vendors. Of course, it was really the economy and the competition that did that.

    They certainly don’t do a good reaching out to me. I see their flyers time to time from vendors, but again Less does not have time to travel.
    Maybe they do, but how about an archived online video library of lectures and demos. How about providing video highlights of trade shows for those of us that don’t have the time or money to go. As I said, I do not know what they offer, because they do a terrible job marketing themselves to me. With the internet, seems like it would be pretty easy to do. How about PPFA exclusive discounts on trade publications; website companies that specialize in the framing and art industry, printers, inks, software, hardware, etc. How about a coupon from some glass company the paid for PPFA membership after a certain dollar amount.

    Does anyone at the PPFA collect a salary? Is it non-profit or for profit? Depending on volunteers is an uphill battle.

    Less likes the video conferencing idea.

    Guess Less may never know.
  29. osgood

    osgood SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Some people are only interested in financial benefits and that's OK, but it also shows that they do not understand that there are other benefits to themselves and their businesses.

    PPFA is almost completely volunteer driven. The members who do volunteer must think that there are benefits other than financial or they wouldn't volunteer their time!

    Perhaps if more people volunteered to do a little, lots more could be done?

    I'm not sure that having suppliers pay memberships would be such a good idea. We all know that anything we pay for has more value to us than something we get for nothing. Besides, membership is hardly a King's ransom! A couple of tanks of gas, perhaps and it's for a whole year. A couple of tanks of gas don't last long!
  30. Paul Cascio

    Paul Cascio SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Dues are not very expensive, however, anytime people pay money for something, unless they consider it a charitable donation, they need to feel that the benefits they receive are equal to, or greater, than the cost. Just as when we sell, we "Sell the benefits," people who are considering joining are evaluating benefits.

    Although this thread is certainly not a formal survey, nor even a substantial data sample, the people who have taken the time on this thread to talk about why they left PPFA, and what would get them to come back have mostly echoed some similar thoughts. There seems to be some valuable information there that might help the assocation appeal to a wider segment of the industry.

    Neither I, nor those who candidly revealed their reasons for leaving PPFA, are intending our comments as attacks on Randy, Cliff or any of the many dedicated members of PPFA who volunteer their time, efforts and expense. We're all on the same team now. Yes, even me. Admittedly, I've learned some hard lessons. I promise I will no longer stand on the outside, spitting and throwing rocks. I want to become a part of the solution.

    However, I hope it can be considered by those in power in the PPFA, that it needs to look at how the association might evolve to provide greater appeal and benefits, to a much higher percentage of the industry than it currently does. Ask the questions, can a Trade Association really wear that title proudly when only a minority portion of its industry sees fit to join? Wouldn't it be better to find ways to make it unthinkable for professional framers to not join?

    IMO, it also makes sense that the PPFA looks to adapt to the changes in the industry, in technology, in the overall economy and in consumer habits and choices. Let's move forward, and let's do it together, as an industry. I will be re-joining the PPFA this week and hope others who have left will do the same.
  31. Framing:

    Framing: In Corner

    Gosh... you are a great support !!!!!

    Yep that will help grow the ppfa... selling to the converted.
  32. Pat Kotnour

    Pat Kotnour SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    The Best Use of Shadowbox Art was a catagory that I sponsored last year with a cash donation to the national PPFA framing competition. Unfortunately, the person who won it didn't even seem to know that the money that they received had come from my company, nor what the award was for. And since there were so few entries in the catagory, only 2, I officially offered PPFA a $200 gift certificate to go to every chapter to be awarded to the competition entry at the local level who had the best use of Shadowbox Art. My thought was that maybe it would spark more interest in SB open entries. This alone would have been at a cost of $5400 to my company. I also offered a $25 GC for every new member who joined PPFA. but was turned down with PPFA stating that it was against the bylaws. I was told that it would be considered advertising and they can't advertise for a company. So my question to PPFA is; how does the gift package Cliff talks about differ from our gift certicates? There doesn't seem to be any consistancy in what can or cannot be done within the organization.
  33. Jim Miller

    Jim Miller SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    We can make time for what we consider to be important, so what you're really saying is that you do not consider framing education or trade shows to be important enough to give up other activities. With that mindset, you might never appreciate PPFA, or WCAF, or other opportunities to learn what is going on. Do you ever wonder if you're missing something important?

    Participating in the industry beyond one's own frame shop is not for everyone, and that's OK. But in isolation, you have no idea what you do not know.
  34. DarthFramer

    DarthFramer CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2

    Good Morning Framing: Your recent post contained quotes from two different postings. The first (moving my ideas to ppfa corner was from one person). The second (that trip took 15 minutes was from me) having a little fun with the first posting. I should have used the quote button to highlight the first post and then write mine - showiing that his trip to PPFA Corner and back to the G took 15 minutes. I need to learn how to quote only parts of a post - can someone please take the time to teach an old dog a new trick? Hope that clears up any misunderstanding of the content/meaning of my post. Thank you for bringing it to my attention. Darth

    Last edited: Feb 25, 2013
  35. Cliff Wilson

    Cliff Wilson SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Pat, could you call me and tell me who you talked to?? And whether you're still willign to do it?
    I'm not the chair of the committee that would put that together, but I'd still like to try and help.

    I was trying very hard to put together a new member packet nationally and couldn't get any traction.

    I find it curious and frustrating that people say the bylaws this and the bylaws that when they obviously haven't even read them.
    Or, quote "PPFA Policy," when the only written policy statements are "Guidelines for Competitions" and the "Guidelines for Certification."
    Everything else is "past practice" at best. There are no written policies. yet.
  36. David N Waldmann

    David N Waldmann SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Just click "Reply with quote" and delete the part you don't want. However, note that the text in brackets - [ text ] - both at the beginning and end of the quote, need to stay intact.

    If multi-quote works on your machine (it seems to for some, and not others - myself included), if you want to quote multiple posts, click the "Multi-quote" button on all the posts you want except the last one. The last one, click "Reply with quote".

    If multi-quote DOESN'T work, you will have to do "Reply with quote" and copy the whole text. Then, go back to the thread and do "Reply with quote" for the next post and paste what you copied from the previous "Reply with Quote". If you want add more quotes, continue copying everything (including what you just pasted), go back, "Reply with quote" to the next one, etc until you have all you want.

    Once you have all the quotes you can delete irrelevant text, add your own comments, etc.

    Note that if you are adding comments you should do so immediately after the [ /quote ] part, or your comment will look like it was within the quoted post.

    If you want to split up one quote into two or more sections, so you can comment in context, you need to copy the very first bracketed text, i.e. [ QUOTE=DarthFramer;881426 ] and paste it immediately before the text you want to quote, and end the quote with the [ /quote ]. Note that in my examples there is an added space between the brackets and the text. If I didn't it would look like I was quoting you, like this:

  37. DarthFramer

    DarthFramer CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2

    Thanks for the help. I'll work on it late at night so I don't drive people nuts with my test posts! Darth
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2013
  38. Pat Kotnour

    Pat Kotnour SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Thanks Cliff. As I said on the phone, if PPFA is going to set policies, they should take into consideration that busineses pay a much higher rate in membership dues than the frame shops do. One of the benefits of belonging as a business should be some sort of advertising through the organization, even if it is only at the local level.
  39. Mary M

    Mary M CGF, Certified Grumble Framer

    Northern Rockies PPFA Chapter in Montana

    Rhonda-I am the current president of the Northern Rockies chapter--PPFA is still alive, though having a bit of trouble making contact with our members. I would love to talk to you, but I can't find your information in our membership list from last year. Please--would you mind shooting me a private message? Perhaps I can bring you up to speed on what we've been doing for the last six months. I would much appreciate any further information you can give us and look forward to hearing from you.
  40. Ylva

    Ylva SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    This seems to be one sentiment I hear a lot (not meaning to single you out Randy, this is NOT a personal attack or anything)

    So, it's not what the PPFA can do for me, but what I can do for the PPFA?

    Shouldn't they be paying me then?

    I was a member for one year, my first year in framing (in the US). Went to two meetings, felt horribly lost as I didn't know anyone at that time. I simply failed to see the benefit of belonging to the organization, didn't clearly understand what was so great about the PPFA, other than that it is the only organization we have.

    I am not against the PPFA, I simply have not seen any reason to re-join. It's not so much about the membership fee, it is failing to see what that membership is doing for me.
    I don't see myself as 'a taker'. But it should balance out in the end. Right now, I simply don't have the time to give to the PPFA, nor do I see any appalling reason why I should do so in the future. I am more than happy to give them money..but I would like to see something in return. I don't see that as wrong, or as being a taker.

    I do like the idea of a national campaign to put framing back on the map, or at least, into consumer's minds. What is so wrong about that?

    There will still be framers without the PPFA. There will be no PPFA without framers.
  41. FramerCat

    FramerCat SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Wow, that is exactly how I feel.

  42. Pat Kotnour

    Pat Kotnour SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    I've always thought that the organization should do some kind of national ads to help with consumer awareness. Something that would install the idea of making memories last, or let us decorate your walls theme. Maybe a radio ad, say before Father's day that would have a child talking to their mom about what to get Dad. The mom could say, you know, the walls in your dad's office are pretty bare, how about having some of that stuff from his army days he keeps in a box in the closet, framed? I saw a custom frame shop just down the street, I'll bet they could do it for you. And you know something else honey, Mother's day is coming up, while we are there you might even find me a nice painting for sitting room!......hint, hint. I can even help you pick it out..

    Each time the ad would run they could put a tag on the end mentioning couple of different shops in the area, but they would have to be a PPFA member to get mentioned. Something like: for all your framing needs call Deena at Joe Framers Inc, on Main Street, Frameville or Ted at TheFrame Shop, on Bear Cub lane North Pole, AK Go see them and make your memories last.

    Just an idea.
  43. Rob Markoff

    Rob Markoff PFG, Picture Framing God


    LOVE the idea and the campaign!

    How would you like to head a committee to research the cost of production and determine which media buying group to use and which markets/costs - and how to allocate the costs to the various markets?
  44. Artrageous

    Artrageous PFG, Picture Framing God

    Rob, that should have been in green text! LOL
  45. Artrageous

    Artrageous PFG, Picture Framing God

    Too bad there isn't a large, deep pocketed, corporation willing to spend thousands of dollars on national ad campaigns to get customers to have things custom framed.

    Oh wait, there is...It's called Michaels. We bash them here regularly.

    What other company pushes framing to the masses?
  46. Rob Markoff

    Rob Markoff PFG, Picture Framing God

    I wasn't being sarcastic at all, Mark.

    I think it is a great idea.

    But the idea will never come to fruition if motivated people don't step up and try to make it happen.

    Pat made the suggestion. She is a savvy and innovative business person who is active and supportive of our industry.
    I merely asked her is she wanted to spearhead the idea she suggested as I think she would do a great job.

    I never said for her to do it by herself, but to head a committee.

    Do you think there is some "home office in Des Moines" that can just wave a magic wand and make all these good ideas come to fruition?

    Do you honestly think that PPFA and others have not thought of a "Got Milk" or FTD type campaign for the framing industry and that it was not thoroughly investigated?

    Anyone remember the Framer Select efforts?

    The suggestion is a worthy one. I would LOVE to see it succeed. Sure would like someone like Pat to see where they can get with it. At least if her committee's research proved that the concept, although a good one, is unaffordable, she would be able to communicate that fact and would have said that she tried. Or, that she was able to come up with a workable solution that would benefit the whole industry.
  47. Artrageous

    Artrageous PFG, Picture Framing God

    My mistake, I though it was Rob. I thought you meant for her to do all that work herself, which you didn't.

    I can't imagine how much time that would require.
  48. FramerCat

    FramerCat SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    I think this is a great idea and I and others have even proposed this kind of idea in previous threads, but I am not one of the elite of the industry or even a member of the PPFA, because as I have been told repeatedly by the elite of this forum, that is not the direction that the PPFA wants to go. I have worked on ideas like this and have some new ideas that could get the whole thing funded without any upfront cost to the PPFA or the framers involved, but the attitude I am getting is that my ideas don't matter because I am not one of you. In recent years I have been extremely successful in promoting my own shops without any advertising budget at all, and am absolutely willing to offer ideas to the PPFA with or without being a member, but am constantly being shot down. I wish you all the success in the world with this effort and am willing to help in any way I can, but as I said I am not a member of the PPFA and do not intend to join if the attitude is that marketing is not the direction the PPFA will be considering. If you get this kind of campaign going please let people on the Grumble know because I would join the PPFA in a heartbeat if this is a new direction they are considering, but I am not a member so I won't get the PPFA newsletter or read it on the Framers Corner.

    Also the reason Grumblers bash Michaels is because we are jealous of the market share they have taken by using this kind of marketing. Success is success. If we can use their own tactics to get our market share back why shouldn't we.
  49. Less

    Less SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    where does the money go?

    Who collects a salary in the PPFA?

    Does anyone get paid in the local chapters?

    Are they non-profit?

    Do members get an annual report?
  50. Pat Kotnour

    Pat Kotnour SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    I might be able to get a test market started here to see if it would work on a larger scale, but PPFA national would have to be involved and so would the PPFA member shops in the area. I do really think the industry needs a shot in the arm when it comes to consumer awareness. The term "outa sight outa mind" comes to mind, and the got milk commercial was a really good example. It's about setting subliminal messages and ideas to have something framed. Our industry needs to be proactive to help ourselves.

    Another ad could be a bride talking to her wedding planner and telling them that she saw the coolest guest book idea at a friends wedding and wanted to do the same thing for her's.........ta da she describes a signature mat that was beautifully framed with a wedding picture in the center of it. And what was even better is that her friends MIL gave her a matching memory box with all the wedding stuff in it as a shower gift! There is just and endless amount of possibilities of material for radio or even TV ad's.
    As far as the work goes, it would only take a few phone calls to find out the cost and what it would take to put it together. I wouldn't have any problem with that. It might even be fun.
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