1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. WELCOME Grumblers
    Backup is now done at 3PM EDT. You may find the server down for up to two minutes at that time.

Why did you leave PPFA? What would bring you back?

Discussion in 'The Grumble' started by Paul Cascio, Feb 19, 2013.

  1. Artrageous

    Artrageous PFG, Picture Framing God

    Does anyone think that if Michaels got out of the framing business, and stopped their ad campaigns, that it would be better for the industry as a whole?

    They are the only people advertising on a national scale. When you talk to people they say things like, "I thought only Michaels did custom framing". I don't think our job is to fight them, rather to show people that we also do custom framing and we can do it...{cheaper, better, faster, more choices, higher quality...insert your own adjective}

    Let them do the grunt work of getting the word out about custom framing, then we can concentrate on winning over customers who enjoy having things framed.
  2. shayla

    shayla WOW Framer

    Keep your friends close and your enemies closer?
  3. William Ross

    William Ross CGF, Certified Grumble Framer

    Remember we had the program

    This is addressed to all the PPFA leader with an eye to the past.

    We had that program and advertising/TV downloads for framers to use.
    It didn't work because framers/ framing suppliers could not (or) would not fund local programs, but yes PPFA had a program to get information into national/ local newspapers-magizines etc, but it stopped when PPFA ran out of money.

    Pat idea is very good, but the ball must be carried but a major source, the problem is unless that source gets their rewards from it --then no company is going to underwrite the basic cost of getting the program started. Larson-Juhl had their program, but I'm sure the cost just was to high.

    What I see as being needed first is a basic program that all framers can use in their local market. What I'm saying is a template to show where to start. For the oldtimes we could dust off the old PPFA manual on advertising (I would but its lost in all my junk) from the 1980-90's. If anyone has the book it might be just what we need to start a new program
  4. Pat Kotnour

    Pat Kotnour SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    I don't see how their advertising is helping or is educating the public on framing......maybe for their stores they are. We all know what that is. They mark everything up by 60% and then mark it down for the "sale". This is not educating the public. It's making the public believe they are getting a good deal, all the while they could be getting a real deal. I've gone up against them several times during their big sale events and beat them without even trying. Every time I was less money for better framing.

    This is exactly why the small market needs their own type of advertising, focusing on skilled framers, which the BB's don't have, with competitive pricing, which they also don't have, and a much more hands on approach to educating the public.

    If we keep on doing what we are doing, or have done in the past, and expect a different outcome, then we have no one to blame but ourselves if the big boxes keep on pushing us out of business. You may want to remember the story of David and Goliath. Maybe it's time we stopped being afraid of Golaith and started trying to beat him at his own game.
  5. j Paul

    j Paul PFG, Picture Framing God

    TV advertising / Co-op.

    Paul Cascio put some sample ads together a few years ago to see if there was interest among independents. The cost was low enough if framers got together in their trade area. Guess what - it was poo-pooed on and he wasn't able to get it started. I thought it was great and would have been in on it in a heart beat.
  6. Cliff Wilson

    Cliff Wilson SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    I am absolutely NOT saying someone shouldn't give it a go again, but ...

    * PPFA has in the past put provided artwork and posters and ad workups and everything needed for Multiple different ad campaigns that the framer could take and just add their logo to. They were available for free to members. These were professionally done and extensive. They were ignored.

    * PPFA produced a campaign of press releases that went out to major news agencies over a period of months. They were pushed to members with the expectation/hope that members would submit them to their own local news mediums with their own contact information. The effort died from lack of interest.

    * PPFA produced radio spots that could be modified for local use (I went looking and can't find them now, but they were there.) No one used them.

    * PPFA has created a number of consumer oriented facebook pages in the hopes that framers would share them and we could get some traction in social media circles. These pages still exist, but are lanquishing.

    * FramerSelect tried to produce and national campaign that required $$ and buy in from framers. It died.

    * Larson Juhl tried a national campaign and could identify no return from the effort. They tried some test local targeted marketing campaigns in conjunction with framers from the local marketing areas and the conclusions as I understand it were not good.

    * here in the Worcester area we got 6 frameshops to band together with a single website and cable advertisemnets in the hopes of a "rising tide lifts all boats" kind of campaign. Zero results.

    I am not saying it can't be done. Often, when things fail it's because they make mistakes in execution and not the overall idea. I would never say don't try. But, understand that things have been attempted before and try to apply the lessons from previous experiences to any new effort.
  7. stcstc

    stcstc SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    i think firstly that the medium of TV for advertising is a ageing concept. i mean how many people fastforward the ads using tivo or similar pvr

    not for one minute am i suggesting that its going away completley but i think its appeal and market are slowly diminishing

    so as a concept i am not convinced that making tv adverts will have the return on investment that people think

    also i am not convinced people will visit a picture framer because that have seen a TV advert.

    what might work more effectively (not sure if its practical) is seeing some of the TV interior designer types discussing going to a framer etc.
  8. johnny

    johnny SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Well, I'll tell you what. The big recurring problem I have over the years with the PPFA is that it seems to really, really want to direct consumers to specific frame shops. Every time there is talk, there is talk about this. Yes, doing so is like FTD. It's far more like FTD than it is a trade association. Trade associations benefit and/or market a trade, not individual members.

    Luckily, the PPFA is miles and miles away from ever affording such a thing. For a while I was really worried that the ease of internet marketing would make this kind of thing availble to them again, but I don't think they can afford that either. I'm simply not paying you to send my customers to the competition, or someone's house. You promote the industry all you want and let framers attract their own clients.

    If the organization ever got legs again I feel this type of thing would be a top priority. Call us and we'll tell you where to go shop! It's flat out wrong.
  9. j Paul

    j Paul PFG, Picture Framing God

    I haven't ran my cable TV spots for 3 or 4 years now. What I am finding that works is our "LIVE Radio spots". We run 3 each Saturday morning and I have people walking in the door telling me they heard my spot on the Bob Kelly show. I pay $50. per live spot - usually goes on for 2 - 3 mins. the DJ has been in my store several times and knows what I do, I also prepared a binder for him and send him emails updates to talk about every Friday.
  10. Paul Cascio

    Paul Cascio SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    It can be done. Each one of the campaigns you mention had some promise, but they all had one or more fundamental flaws, IMO.

    I am confident that it absolutely can be done. However, the actual advertising can't be done on a national level due to the cost, and also because there's no incentive for people to chip in when they'll still get the benefits for free.
  11. Pat Kotnour

    Pat Kotnour SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Cliff, I've been in PPFA for a very long time, before Attach-EZ and the last 12 years since and was not aware of any of these advertising efforts that were made by PPFA. If there was a mistake, and that is a big if, it may have been lack of communication and information going out to the membership. The only way a mass advertising campaign can work is if the membership knows what is being done on their behalf and are kept informed.
  12. Ylva

    Ylva SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    So, who paid for the 'got milk' campaign?

    I understand Johnny, that you would like the benefits only to go to the people who pay into that,but that might not be at all possible. I think a general awareness what framers can do for you (the general public) would benefit everyone. But don't you think that if every frame shop does get more customers, it might also increase the amount of framers who would become PPFA members?

    I think the big problem is that no one, outside of the PPFA, understand what it is that the PPFA does. When I expressed that concern as a start up framer, I was advised to join. So I did. For a year. I still don't know.
  13. DanGray

    DanGray MGF, Master Grumble Framer

    I was a member when we were back east.

    After moving out here to Cody I want to join but the meetings were just way to far for me to go. It would mean at the least an overnight stay.

    Wish there was one closer to me.
  14. Cliff Wilson

    Cliff Wilson SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    I know that for at least a couple of the PPFA compaigns there were email blasts, mailings, and every chapter was told at meetings at some point.

    People I know I told, came up to me afterward and said they didn't know.

    I'm sorry, I just don't know how to fix this?!?!!
  15. johnny

    johnny SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    No, I mean the exact opposite and I agree with your comments. The benefits of any ad campaign should benefit the industry. Sure, mention PPFA very prominently but stop short of recommending exact frame shops. The members would come. The Got Milk campaign is a positive example. FTD, or the effort in the past which charged everyone's distributor invoices 1% without prior approval to fund a campaign of referrals are very negative examples. Even though so old, why are they still relevant? Because some of the same people are around, and when you argue with them and they not only stand by a program that violate Anti-Trust acts but are proud of them and say given the chance they would resurrect them it makes them still dangerous. From the enthusiasm that comes up whenever this type of thing is mentioned it's evident that the only thing stopping it is money, and given the scarcity of it now all the talk seems to be pie-in-the-sky thinking. Which is good, because if rumors are justified the organization has shown on multiple occasions that there are inherent challenges in even keeping dues managed so how can you entrust the power to direct the consumer to specific shops?
  16. DVieau2

    DVieau2 PFG, Picture Framing God

    Just so we have the proper perspective.

    >>>>>>>"Awareness of GOT MILK? is over 90% nationally and it is considered one of the most important and successful campaigns in history…The Dairy industry spends $150-million annually to support GOT MILK?, including use on those Milk Mustache ads. In addition, the 'brand' has become a hot property with over 100 product licensees."<<<< 1993 Quote from http://milk.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=000832

    1000 framers spending $15,000 per year get us 1/10 of the "Got Milk" campaign.

  17. johnny

    johnny SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Right... pie-in-the-sky.

    Even so, no one is saying framers would duplicate the campaign. It's being used as an example of the type of marketing.
  18. RParrish

    RParrish PFG, Picture Framing God

    I don't mean to shuffle this complaint off or anything because it is a real issue and its a international issue as well as a chapter issue. Our chapter tries to vary to locations of our meeting, east, west, north and south. The majority of our members are in south east Michigan however.

    The most direct solution, is get involved with your regional chapter, the squeaky wheel gets the grease. It works just like that plain and simple.

    Maybe chapter meetings could be put on webcams and recorded, uploaded to YouTube, here again it takes someones personal initiative to make that happen. Sounds simple enough but, I can see it getting complicated real fast.
  19. RParrish

    RParrish PFG, Picture Framing God

  20. johnny

    johnny SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Yep, that was pretty awesome. All around-positive. Great of him to do and it's fantastic that many people took it and benefited.

    I know the PPFA provides marketing collateral. From what I see, the members don't look for it, lots don't realize it exists, and non-members can't see it at all. So maybe the question is how do we make offerings from the national organization more effective than a holiday gift, as awesome as it was, on a forum post?
  21. RParrish

    RParrish PFG, Picture Framing God

    More marketing efforts.






    http://paper.li/pma_ppfa/1360861525 Paper.li complies framing related tweets on a daily basis, it does have it's own ads, since like Facebook is a free service.



    These are all out there and active, the PPFA has promoted members and even non members equally and everything there, like all social media is there for you to share and participate in.

    and Find a Framer


    It's not going to be a perfect solution, because perfect solutions do not exist, but there are without a doubt volunteers making the effort!!!!!!
  22. Cliff Wilson

    Cliff Wilson SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    yep, we keep trying. You're all welcome to help.
  23. johnny

    johnny SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Good efforts! I only get nervous when there is talk about controlling the consumer. For the Facebook ones, how do we get them to the eyes of the consumer? One way is by promoting them with Facebook ads. That costs, of course. So another way is by getting framers all over to share the posts. Why do so many framers like and share Facebook posts from Larson and Roma? I share tons of Larson's posts, but I generally share the ones that fit my business. I can provide the same products. They look slick and polished. And they are far, far easier than making my own content. Seems it shouldn't be difficult to inspire framers to share content that the PPFA posts, providing the framer with free content, providing the PPFA with exposure, and providing the consumer with ideas and inspiration. How often do we have a win/win/win scenario? Should the PPFA look to really communicate to members the benefits of sharing posts and tweets? How many framers realize those pages are there but don't realize they need to take the next step?
  24. j Paul

    j Paul PFG, Picture Framing God

    Johnny, you bring up some good points.

    • I think that perhaps some framers might be afraid to share these post because the name of another framer is mentioned. Although most of the time that framer is far removed from the framers own trade area.
    • As administrator for one of those pages, I think that perhaps we have failed to get framers to share those posts, is because we have not directly asked them to do so. In future posts that I make to that page, I will include a "Call to Action" That is a basic advertising principal that we have overlooked.
  25. RParrish

    RParrish PFG, Picture Framing God

    You share them on your page as examples.

    I would like to see the PPFA FB/Twitter/Pinterest, pages share and promote more PPFA members pages too. Like the "For Members Only" which is only quarterly which means only spotlighting 4 members per year. Granted the FMO feature is more in depth. It would be a nice way to show your customers you have been recognized.
  26. DarthFramer

    DarthFramer CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2


    In all most all cases, of non-profit boards, the Executive Director acts as the COO of the organization and is a paid person to run the day to day operations of the organization. The COO would then report to and work for the board. The Board exists to make policy, supervise funds, etc.

    Just two questions that might help people better understand the operational needs of the PPFA.

    1. I see we have a Secretary/Executive Director - Is this ED a paid position? If not, why the title?

    2. The terms of the directors of PPFA - I should know this one, so please for give me. The terms of the members. How many years? Does the whole board turnover at one time. If the entire board turns over, say each year, is the Immediate Past President the only person who would stay on. I see we also have a Past President, why?

    Better not to assume any things: CEO would be the Chairman/President of a non-profit board and
    the CCO is more incharge of operational needs of the organization.

    Several of the last post have been the most open and helpful discussion that I have seen in years. Thank-you! Darth
  27. Cliff Wilson

    Cliff Wilson SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    There are 3 people who's salary is paid by PMA that are part-time assigned to PPFA, but are responsible for other sub-groups as well.
    There are other paid staffers at PMA that from time to time perform duties that benifit PPFA. Graphic Artists, IT people, Clerical, ... people to give you an idea.

    Jim Esp (head of PMA) is our official Secretary/Executive Director, but Elaine Truman usually acts in his stead and is really our day to day contact.

    Board Officers; President, Vice President and Treasurer are one year terms.
    Immediate Past President and Past President (A President from some number of years ago for historic perspective) are one year terms.
    Director Positions (6) are staggered 3 year terms. However, often, a Director will be nominated for an officer position before their term is up and the term will be filled until it's completion, so someone might be elected to finish 1yr of someone elses term for example.
  28. DarthFramer

    DarthFramer CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2


    That clears up alot for me and maybe others who might not have known. The PMA sounds very helpful in lending expert help in areas that many of us don't have the skills. A thank-you to PMA and its employees for their help.

    The involved members serving on the national board give their own time and bring experience in their own areas. The budget might not provide for one at this time, but if we could have one person who's JOB it is to perform for and report progress to the board it would make a world of diffence. As it now stands, no one has any "skin" in the game. (don't perform and you loose job/check):soapbox: A thank-you to PPFA board members also. Leadership by example is a great motivator for the troops.

Sponsor Wanted

Share This Page

Wizard Ad