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PPFA Why?

Jeannie Franklin CPF

CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2
Why does PPFA allow the BB stores to put signs in their stores that says they have a CPF on staff? In my town they have no CPF except one that works in a different state. I don't think that's very fair.
 
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Paul Cascio

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
What exactly does the sign say? Can you post a picture?

For years, Michaels had this nasty habit of deceiving the public by lining the walls around their counter area with certificates of all their Michael's Certified Framers. Of course, you didn't have to know anything about framing to get one of theses, just learn how to operate the Point of Sale system and take an open book quiz. If that was too difficult, oftent the department manager would stand over you shoulder and coach you. I thought they stopped, but maybe not.

The customers would think these "Certified Michaels Picture Framers" actually had some expertise, but NO, it was just another Michaels trick.

PPFA is also to blame because they've dilluted the CPF designation by not protecting their Certification Mark. If you don't defend these things, they become useless from both a practical and a legal standpoint.
 

blackiris

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
OK.......not to open a HUGE can of worms...........
Paul......ur one of my FAVS.......but I disagree with you......

The certificate states that they have been certified by MICHAEL'S standards.....Its Their own certification program......

I dont agree with ALL of their corporate practices.........BUT....they do teach you the basics.....they do TEACH CONSERVATION techniques.......THEY DO TEACH.......PERIOD

YOU HAVE to pass certain tests....and....YES PEOPLE FAIL IT............
Back in the day.....I had to give these tests to new employees.....Make SURE they knew what they were doing.....some actually still work there......that was 8 years ago.....

Not every employee that works there is a complete idiot.....:bdh:
 

Pangolin

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Maybe a BB store certified picture framer is different than a PPFA certified framer.
It is different. I worked at both a M's and a JA's. At both they have a little multiple choice quiz you take and then corporate sends you a little certificate that says you are a "Certified Framer". Sometimes, if there wasn't much going on, your manager might let you use an oops frame and some mats to frame up the certificate and hang it up behind the counter.

It is a bit deceiving, but I don't think most people have any idea there's any kind of testing that goes on at all in order to frame things, after all, "it's just four sticks of wood and some cardboard"!

PPFA should protect their logos and such, but anyone can make up a test and give it to their employees to make them "Certified Framers".
 

johnny

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Here a competitor tells their customers that unless their print is framed by a PPFA CPF it will automatically lose it's value.

People suck. Organizations suck. Everyone sucks. You can't expect morality from anyone... just do the best you can.
 

Paul Cascio

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Maybe a BB store certified picture framer is different than a PPFA certified framer.
Of course they are different - one has knowledge and experience; the other has a certificate whose purpose is to deceive the customer into thinking they have knoweldge and experience.

Michaels’s is, IMO, creating confusion in the marketplace, and trivializes the Certified Picture Framer designation, which a Registered Certification Mark. And in fairness, M's isn't the only chain doing this.

As an example, If you were to call yourself a Michaels Certified Public Accountant, do you think the CPA’s (another certification mark) would let you get away with it? Not a chance.
 

Jeff Rodier

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Here a competitor tells their customers that unless their print is framed by a PPFA CPF it will automatically lose it's value.
Turn them in to the SEC. You have to have a securities license to discuss future value of artwork. There was a huge enforcement effort of this in the late 80', early 90's because all of the framers selling LE's were touting them as investments.
 

Jeff Rodier

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
As an example, If you were to call yourself a Michaels Certified Public Accountant, do you think the CPA’s (another certification mark) would let you get away with it? Not a chance.
Paul, the gov't is currently looking at requiring minimum standards for any that use the term Financial Planner. One can be a Certified Financial Planner which requires minimum standards and membership. The certifying organization has no recourse for those using the term Financial Planner.
 

Paul Cascio

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Jeff, IMO, its an FTC matter; not SEC. They're not selling "Investment" art. Some of our own brethren are the ones guilty of that practice.

It's the "certifying" part that I have issue with. They are free to call themselves picture framers; or financial planners too if they want.
 

Jeff Rodier

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Paul, my bet is that at least one business created some type of certification for their company framers before PPFA.

As far as the SEC the determination was made based on future value. You can not discuss future value without a license. In most states it is illegal for a real estate agent to discuss future value of a home. They can discuss historic trends but not future value even though they hold a license.
 

BILL WARD

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Turn them in to the SEC
or, at the least, the local bunco squad.. That is fraud by any measure. no different than bait-n-switch.
 

Paul Cascio

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Yeah, but the bigger you are, the more grievous the offense. I never said Michaels doesn't train people, just that maybe they should do it before they "certify" them. The idea of plastering their walls with those certs was to convey a false expertise to the customers.

Michaels has some good framers, and lots of good people working in their stores, including some of my former employees. The people who work in their stores are not at fault and I have no beef with any of them. They are following orders and trying to feed their familes.

BTW, could a Mod please remove the "For Sale" tag from this thread.
 

Jim Miller

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Why does PPFA allow the BB stores to put signs in their stores that says they have a CPF on staff?
PPFA does not "allow" them to do that.

The signs may say "Certifed Framer", or some other words to that effect, but the signs should not say "CPF" or "Certified Picture Framer", because that would be a direct violation of the law.

If there actually is a violation of the law, which is usually not the case, then PPFA would have to decide whether it is practical to pay lawyers to stop them.
 

Paul Cascio

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Wrong. Infringement occurs when there is a likelihood of creating confusion in the marketplace. As for PPFA's actions, I'll leave that to them to decide.
 

Barb Pelton

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
If I recall correctly, "CPF" wasn't registered as it was already in use (Certified Pipe Fitters?, or something or other). What was registered and protected was PPFA-CPF. If I'm wrong on this, someone step in and correct me.

I remember running some ads years ago which said 'Is your framer certified by the Professional Picture Framers Association?" just so I could build some awareness in my community.

I had an employee leave me to work at a Michaels in 1997, and she got a CPF from them within a couple of weeks. She called to let me know, and even she thought it was the same as the PPFA certification. Once she relayed to me what she was tested over, (not much!) I felt compelled to try to do what I could to at least inform my potential customers.

I make sure all of my ads and educational material uses PPFA-CPF.
 

DVieau2

PFG, Picture Framing God
Is Michaels a PPFA member?

Has anyone from PMA/PPFA spoken with Michaels about PPFA membership and lobby them to adopt the same CPF standard.

Their membership could also add much needed numbers for local chapters. A little competition wouldn't hurt either. The idea that the staff at Michaels is working on raising quality standards might motivate independents to get with the program.

PMA has the business to business types who could make this happen.

Would Michaels be welcome?

Doug
 

John Ranes II CPF GCF

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
1986

Jeff Rodier said:
Paul, my bet is that at least one business created some type of certification for their company framers before PPFA.
Jeff,

I don't think so! (1986 - PPFA - CPF Program was launched)

My bet is that the big boxes guilty of using this "similar In-House" designation followed as a reaction and continue the practice as they know they can get away with it. Lazy...devious...unethical - Probably.

John
 

Jeff Rodier

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
We'll have to check with John Baker to see if Aaron Bros. did any kind of certification. Might even need to check if Woolworth's did it either. Any company that had used XYZ Certified preceding PPFA would have prevented PPFA from protecting the designation. It could have just been shortsighted on the PPFA's part by not trademarking if they were the first ever to certify a picture framer.
 

FramerDave

PFG, Picture Framing God
CPF, Certified Picture Framer, MCPF and Master Certified Picture Framer are all registered trademarks, and have been since about 2002.

I suppose a lot of this depends on how Michael's is promoting their certification. Are they using "Certified Picture Framer" or CPF? Or do they use something like Certified Framer? It's a small difference, and a sneaky one, but it may be enough that it's not an infringement. After all, the employees are framers and they have a certificate.

Just to clarify one point: the CPF or MCPF designations apply to an individual only, not an entire shop or other organization. A store may advertise that they have a Certified Picture Framer or a Master Certified Picture Framer on staff, but it still only refers to the person or persons holding the designation.

Finally, an organization may teach framing following PPFA guidelines but to the best of my knowledge the PPFA does not "endorse" or put their seal of approval on any training program outside of classes offered under their aegis.
 

Jeff Rodier

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
M's uses Certified Framer. The cert is issued under the M's name.
 

cvm

PFG, Picture Framing God
PPFA does not "allow" them to do that.
So you're sayin' that if someone's earned their CPF designation while working at 'Joe's Frame Shack' and then leaves to go work for Michael's, the PPFA won't allow them to display their CPF certification...?

:rolleyes:
 

FramerDave

PFG, Picture Framing God
So you're sayin' that if someone's earned their CPF designation while working at 'Joe's Frame Shack' and then leaves to go work for Michael's, the PPFA won't allow them to display their CPF certification...?

:rolleyes:
Not sure if you're serious or not, but refer to below:

Just to clarify one point: the CPF or MCPF designations apply to an individual only, not an entire shop or other organization. A store may advertise that they have a Certified Picture Framer or a Master Certified Picture Framer on staff, but it still only refers to the person or persons holding the designation.

Didn't yer boys have an in-house designation for framers back in the Jim Nye days...?
Don't know. That was before my time.
 

John Ranes II CPF GCF

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
CPF - MCPF

cvm said:
So you're sayin' that if someone's earned their CPF designation while working at 'Joe's Frame Shack' and then leaves to go work for Michael's, the PPFA won't allow them to display their CPF certification...?
Jim was referring to the CPF designation, not the use of "Certified Framer".

As Dave pointed out, both the CPF and MCPF designation and for the that matter, the GCF (Awarded by the FATG - UK) are given to the individual and stay with the individual and not the business.

If an employee who has earned the CPF designation moves onto a different framing business, the designation goes with that employee. For this very reason, we have had a shop policy in place for years, that if an employee had any interest in becoming a CPF, that we would be more than happy to acquire the study materials, pay for the travel expenses to get to the testing location, but that the employee would pay for the examination fee.

If they were to pass, the designation would belong to that employee.

John
 

Emibub

PFG, Picture Framing God
Just for some contrast.................when I ran a Michael's shop they had a true blue PPFA CPF who had previously run the shop. I agreed to let him just step down and continue to work in the shop for that reason. I was taking his job because he didn't lead well but I gathered he was a good framer. What a king sized mistake that was. He took short cuts on everything. As an example, he didn't use glue in frames. It slowed him down. This is in thumbnailed frames, mind you. His claim to fame was he could build a frame in 45 seconds. I told him I couldn't unwrap a frame in 45 seconds. He assured me that included unwrapping. He even showed me once. Can't tell you how many frames came back to us. He also dry mounted stitchery. Many many other things with no time to tell.

He always claimed any method he used was CPF sanctioned. Heck, most of it wasn't even Michael's sanctioned. He had his certificate hanging proudly.

There's plenty of good people working in those BB's. He wasn't one of them. Michael's did pressure you to certify an employee in a certain amount of weeks, I think it was 8 at the time. I always tried to make sure they learned something before taking the test. I always made sure they knew it was just "Michael's certified" since I knew the difference.
 

David N Waldmann

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
PPFA does not "allow" them to do that.
So you're sayin' that if someone's earned their CPF designation while working at 'Joe's Frame Shack' and then leaves to go work for Michael's, the PPFA won't allow them to display their CPF certification...?
If you look at the context I think you will see that Jim didn't mean "they can't do that because the PPFA forbids it". I believe what he meant was that people don't ask for permission of the PPFA to display signs, therefore the fact that a sign is being displayed does not by itself indicate approval of the PPDA.
 

Jim Miller

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
So you're sayin' that if someone's earned their CPF designation while working at 'Joe's Frame Shack' and then leaves to go work for Michael's, the PPFA won't allow them to display their CPF certification...?

:rolleyes:
Not exactly.

PPFA does not "...allow the BB stores to put signs in their stores that says they have a CPF on staff", when there is no PPFA-CPF on staff, and that was the context of the question.

If a PPFA-CPF really were on staff, then it would be legitimate. As others have already made clear, the PPFA designations apply to the individual holding the designation, not the company.

For as long as an individual maintains the designation, the individual may rightfully advertise it, and the employer may rightfully advertise "PPFA-CPF on staff."
 

wvframer

MGF, Master Grumble Framer
What a can of worms! You can get accurate information about this from the PPFA web site: www.ppfa.com. If you don't find what you are looking for, you can use the "contacts" list for the email of the staff member responsible for each issue. They are very helpful and responsive.
 

Paul Cascio

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
PPFA contacted me and told me they were going to pass my concerns to their compliance person. It's their Intellectual Property, but trademarks, and presumably cert marks, need to be protected or they lose their power.
 

Smile with Style

CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2
A thorn is a thorn by any other name?

Has anyone from PMA/PPFA spoken with Michaels about PPFA membership and lobby them to adopt the same CPF standard.

Doug
Why would M's want to adopt the same CPF standard when they can get the same mileage with their own designation for which they can set the standard and pay less for the training?

Sadly, picture framers are not the only one's dealing with this inequity. Have you ever heard of a 'diamontologist' (not sure of spelling)? Well, there's a company promoting that all of their sales staff are certified 'diamontologists'. Sounds impressive even if it is questionable. Other jewelers go through extensive and expensive training to become 'gemologists'. However, the general public doesn't know the difference. Sounds familiar doesn't it.
 

Jeannie Franklin CPF

CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2
Here is the pic of M's document. Oviously it is not a PPFA certificate, but I hate to tell you how many people tell me they think it's like my certifited one from PPFA. It's like they say "Oh, the framers at M's are certified too!". I also sent this to a person at PPFA so she would know it was not what I originally thought it was.
 

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wvframer

MGF, Master Grumble Framer
This is a much nicer certificate than those that have been hanging at my local michaels. They are clearly upping the ante.
 

Paul Cascio

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Jeannie, is that the only certificate on display or are there numerous certificates like that one? I can't read the fine print, but the large print reads, "Framer's Gallery Custom Framing".
 

Jeannie Franklin CPF

CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2
The above pic says Certified sounter and design specialist and then the name
The first picutre says Certified Framer and then the name
I can't make out any more of the detail
 

HangingAroundHoover

MGF, Master Grumble Framer
Here is the pic of M's document. Oviously it is not a PPFA certificate, but I hate to tell you how many people tell me they think it's like my certifited one from PPFA. It's like they say "Oh, the framers at M's are certified too!". I also sent this to a person at PPFA so she would know it was not what I originally thought it was.
Wow the non-glare glass on this certificate really sucks! :) I wonder why they didn't use masterpiece glass?
 

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