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Yellow Page Ad

Discussion in 'Picture Framing Business Issues' started by TGFU, Aug 11, 2007.

  1. TGFU

    TGFU CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2

    In the 'Barter w/ Yellow Pages' thread Mike mentioned that he has cut way back on his yellow page ads. I would be interested in hearing if anyone else has cut down the size of your yellow page ad. If so, has it impacted your business any? We still get quite a few customers that come to us because they found us in the yellow pages. We currently have a quarter page ad, and hate to move to a smaller size since that's the same size that our main competition has. I've always heard that size and color of yellow page ads do influence decisions. Yet, it is getting significantly more expensive every year for us. The cost of our ad increased $110/mo for the exact same ad (no changes from last year).

    Sponsor Wanted
  2. Dave

    Dave SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Jim ...selling yellow page advertising is one step below the unethical used car salesman. Of course BIG COLOR sells (says the sales rep) and I'll guarantee that if your competitor with the smaller ad goes up in size he won't pay half what you did for your ad.

    Believe me, I know. I use to take a half page ad and slowly dwindled it down. Each year they offered me a cheap price to go larger, add color or whatever. Of course the next year the price doubled.

    How many rate cards do you think they have in that brief case ...and believe me there is life beyond end column too.

    Personally I think if you have a good reputation a bold line listing is all you need or possibly a small box ad. It looks more dignified and when I go through the yellow pages I see big ads and always envision their cost and think ...do I really want to help this guy pay for his advertising or do I just want good work done?

    Now if you're selling pizza or just got run over by a pill popping boozin' doctor and need an attorney ...

    Am I cynical today or what?
  3. Jerry Ervin

    Jerry Ervin PFG, Picture Framing God

    Over the years I have found that the yellow pages is where your customers go to find your phone number. Not necessarily to find a new framer.

    If any of us believed that the yellow pages were very successful at obtaining new customers, compare your ad to Michaels, AC Moore or any of the other big boys.

    Bold listing is all they have.

    Some industries thrive off of yellow page ads like, AC repair, tow truck operators, pizza delivery, plummers...

    Flip through your book, how much retail is in there?
  4. johnny

    johnny SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Invest the money in a website.
  5. j Paul

    j Paul PFG, Picture Framing God

    Jim, (as the barter guy) don't get me wrong, I think for the most part spending Big Bucks on yellow pages add is a waste of money (there are better avenues).

    My yellow page ad in the official AT&T book had been reduced by our third year in business to the free listing only that comes with our phone line.

    I had always refused to put any paid ad in YellowBook, even with my prior business. The ad I am trading monies(barter) with the yellowbook, rep is far, far less than what she was first recomending. It is only a couple of 1/2" color listing and a web listing (which I think will be the most value) I would have paid for none, nada, zip, but I consider this found money. She most likely would not have brought her framing projects in if I had not put the offer to trade services out there. So with COG's I am buying my ad for around 20cents on the dollar. If it doesn't pay off, then next year I will not renew it.
  6. Creative Chicks

    Creative Chicks SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    My yellow pages ad is getting cut in half this year. I remember Bob Carter telling us what his advertising budget is for one year: $00.00. That made me stop and reflect on the amount of advertising I have been doing the last seven years. It kind of blew my mind and now I am scaling back on certain ones and concentrating on others. I'm a late bloomer on web advertising, but now I hear so many other grumblers saying they wish they had done it years earlier.

    Now that I have tracking figures I know what is working for me in this area. I think different areas of the country are going to command different modes of advertising. So we can give you all of our best advise, but I think it really does depend on where you are located what is going to work best for you.

  7. brian..k

    brian..k MGF, Master Grumble Framer

    We took our big banner ad out of the yellow pages this year assuming that our 15 years in business was enough to maintain the level of new customers flowing in our doors. This is the only significant diference from this year to last as far as advertising goes. Our sales are down by more than a typical cyclical fluctuation. So this year we are going to be putting in a smaller banner ad than in previous years. Hopefuly this will replenish our new clients.

    As far as advertising relating to our gross sales. Our biggest gross sales came the same year that we spent the most ever on advertising. Though the amount spent on advertising was more percentage wise than the return of profit was. So we cut back on our general advertising budget.
  8. brian..k

    brian..k MGF, Master Grumble Framer

    You have to take that advice with other factors though. Bob also makes sure that he has a great location that earns him more than a yellow page ad will. If your location doesn't match that ideal thaen be cautious in dropping your advertising budget.
  9. TGFU

    TGFU CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2

    Thanks for all your interesting comments. I wish I would have asked before I signed for this coming year. Regardless, what I am really asking is did you track the number of yellow page referrals before and after you decreased the size, or eliminated your ad? If so, what were the results?

    Thanks again!

    Brian, We must have been typing at the same time. This is what I am looking for. Thanks for the info!
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2007
  10. Paul Cascio

    Paul Cascio SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Having conducted seminars on directory advertising, I've found that business owners tend to have very polarized feelings about Yellow Pages advertising -- they either love it, or hate it. My experience has been those who use it properly, love it.

    Yellow Pages is far different than a typical print ad. In fact, the best way to view your YP ad is to think of it as a trade show booth. The power of YP adveritising comes from the fact that people who see your ad have already decided to purchase custom framing. What they have not decided is who to buy it from. A good ad will help them choose you.

    Another key is that people who are new to your area tend to rely on the Yellow Pages more than the average person. Wouldn't you like to capture people who are new to your area?

    To be fair, YP advertising also has some negatives. It's expensive. And in directory advertising, size matters, so you gotta pay if you want results. However, if you ask yourself how many jobs you need each month to break even, you'll find it's not very many.

    It's also a fixed expense and a full year commitment. If your ad sucks, you must wait for a year to change it.

    Finally, Yellow Pages advertising won't create demand for your product, since only people who have already decided to buy framing will see it.

    Nonetheless, I believe YP advertising is worth it. I built my first framing businesses primarily through YP advertising. When people are looking for a LOCAL, service business, such as picture framing, the YP is what they reach for. It also anchors all of your other advertising.
  11. DTWDSM

    DTWDSM SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Jim to answer your question I would say that most have not actually tracked their results from the Yellow Pages, I bet that most make the descision based on a gut feeling.

    I think it is easier to say something else works better since people are more likely to say they saw your ad in the paper, on TV, Coupon in the paper or valpak or a postcard, ect.

    People rarely say I saw your ad in the phone book because everyone is in there, people will tell you when you do something more unique.

    I agree with Paul, it is like a trade show, the people looking at the book are looking for a framer, that is a good audience to have as long as you have a good ad.
  12. PaulSF

    PaulSF PFG, Picture Framing God

    Hopefully you track all of this. I always -- always - ask new customers how they found out about my store. And then I record it in my POS. So I can tell you to the dollar the sales generated by Yellow Pages vs. Internet vs. walk-ins, etc.

    If you are using a POS, you should be able to set it up to record how each transaction came through your door.
  13. Paul Cascio

    Paul Cascio SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    A good way to track your Yellow Pages results is by using a seperate phone number with a unique ring tone (Call Star Ring in many areas). This service is very affordable at about $5 monthly, and will let you monitor results from your other advertising as well as your YP ad.

    One thing to note is that when you ask a customer how they heard of you, they will usually tell you the last place they saw your advertising, which is often the YP. Your YP ad helps give legs to your other advertising, or what's referred to as anchoring your other advertising. All those radio or TV ads you bought helped your customer to choose your familiar name from the YP.

    If any PPFA groups are interested in a worskhop on Yellow Pages advertising, feel welcome to get in touch.
  14. Val

    Val PFG, Picture Framing God

    An ad of a different color, but...

    My only advertising for the last year and a half, save one in a local magazine (which has generated zero results for the same price), is my yellow page business card-size ad, in color....purple.

    I get a call nearly every day from these ads (actually, 2 yellow page books) and nearly all of those calls result in a visit which results in a frame job sale. They have been my best advertising. My only web-site is the yellow pages ads, and they're working for me. I do track that. Time and again I'm told that the purple stood out, as well as the information in the small ad. Not much more money, but a big difference in results.
  15. Dave

    Dave SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    This is a cut and paste of a post I made from a thread this past February:

    After doing YP advertising for over 30 years I dropped all YP advertising this year except for a bold white page listing and bold YP listing. Mostly because people know my business to a large degree, but can't spell my name. Heck, I even hesitate in the middle when I write it!. At one point I was spending over $ 6,000.00 per month on YP advertising in three different books under 6 different listings due to the varied nature of the retail business I had.

    One year I scoffed at the benefit of YP advertising and my rep talked me into running a separate tracking number in my picture framing billboard full color ad and promised monthly reports. The number would ring in on our phone system just like any other call.

    After pulling teeth and finally getting reports after three months I was astounded to find that this one ad, which cost about $ 800.00 per month, averaged just over 1.5 calls per month. I had no way to say how many sales it might have generated, but at this point I realized that was irrelevant.

    I forgot to mention that they also charged me $ 40.00 per month for the additional tracking number.


    I agree wholeheartedly that the money spent on a web presence is probably much better spent. I'm of the generation that still reaches for the phone book or the dictionary, etc. for information, but am slowly learning how backward I am. My 21 year old was in and laughed out loud at me when he asked for a phone number and I got up from my computer to look for the phone book.

    Old dog ...new tricks. Old business practices ...new way of doing business.

    I use to have a nice site for my old business but have yet to do a web page for my new model. It is on my priority list though.
  16. AWG

    AWG SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    I don't know if 5 years running our own show and 15+ in the business qualifies for anything, but I wholeheartedly agree with Jon (?) about investing the money in a website. Fully 30% of our new business (yes, we track) comes from the web. We still get the same number of phone calls from YP ad after steadily decreasing it for the last 3 years. We only run in the "real" YP and have never looked at Yellow Book, etc - our market is simply to $$$ and our experience on the return shows it simply isn't worth it. It would be easy to blow an entire year's revenue of YP, but then we'd end up welcoming you to WalMart. The point is that for YP to be really effective you need to spend big and most framers don't generate big enough dollars.

    The value of a good website is that the customer has already visited your shop; they know what it looks like, get a "feel" for it, and know what you offer. We know definitively that our web-referred customers generate bigger tickets, own better "stuff" and are less price-conscious than other avenues. They tend to return sooner with more work than others. I remember reading somewhere (PPFA research maybe) that higher income homes tend to use web-based search rather than YP for things like this - it's more local and can be drilled down to exactly what they're looking for, unlike YP.

    just my 2 cents
  17. Paul Cascio

    Paul Cascio SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    How do you get people to your website?
  18. AWG

    AWG SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Just let them google "picture framing Charlotte NC" and they get there. Like I said - high income people (more likley to spend $ on framing) tend to use the net for services like ours. Good keywords, I paid attention in John Ranes' website classes, and hired a good web developer. A good website, IMHO, should be developed and maintained by a pro - it's not a DIY proposition. Ours is good, not the greatest, and due for an overhaul, but it does a GREAT job in growing our shop's business.

    In fairness, a small portion of web traffic comes from YP - but NOT the paid YP web link deal - kind of got turned off when the rep mentioned how great it was and how much traffic it created - with real numbers! - to a shop that closed
    2 1/2 years ago. We simply list the web address in our YP listing and go from there.

  19. Mike Labbe

    Mike Labbe Member, Former moderator team volunteer

    I also agree 110% about the website being the best source of new customers, and it's an area that our business needs improvement in. This is where folks search for services, at least in our area. Greater than 70% of our new customers come in with a web promotional coupon in hand, and we DO ask every new customer how they heard about us. (LifeSaver tracks this and gives reports)

    The web brings in folks often from other states, who drive 50-100 miles and pass hundreds of qualified frame shops on the way. (for specialty services such as jersey framing, etc - simply because it came up on a web search)

    We're in yellowbook and 4 different phone company yellow page books, but those bring less than 1% return. (and it seems to get worse every year). This year, I noticed the framing yellow page ads shrunk in our market. (as did ours) For a monthly fee almost exceeding the rent, I don't see the value. Granted, I still think they are a "necessary evil", but not to the same extent as 10 years ago.

    I should also mention that our ads mention the website, so its POSSIBLE that some of those folks see the yellow pages, go to the web - to learn more about us, then mention the web when we ask. I have no way of knowing for sure.

    >Paul Cascio: How do you get people to your website?

    Getting top listings isn't terribly complicated, nor does it have to cost a dime. There are classes available at our industry trade shows, that give some tips.

    It's about balancing relevent keywords in the title and body of each page on your site, so they appeal to the specific terms your customers may be searching for on google. example: Terms like "custom picture framing" "picture framer in YOUR STATE OR CITY HERE" "certified picture framer" and so on. Local big city and state names are a good thing to emphasize. Each sub page should have its own mix that matches the purpose of that page. Never put the same info on every page. meta Keywords should be included, but most search engines give them very little value these days. The search engines analyze each page and determine a "keyword density", based on such things as how often each word is mentioned, where they are on the site, and if they are bold or headers or italics. Based on all that, they figure out where you should be ranked on the search engines when someone looks for those word(s).

    It's also about being popular. ie: The number of QUALITY sites that link back to your site, which are themselves popular - and share common keywords. You can install the "Google Toolbar" to see the approximate "PageRank" (popularity) of sites that you visit. This is very close to the formula they use, which is a well guarded secret. If you trade links with other related sites, it helps both achieve a higher pageRank value.

    By all means, hire a professional to do this... BUT I suggest educating yourself before doing so, visit similar sites in this and like industries, create a rough draft of UNIQUE content (wording and pictures) of your own for the pages on your site, a navigation/menu system that is easy, promos, and determine what keywords you will want to target. (how people may find your services) While a pro can put it all together and make it happen, they don't know this industry or your shop, and will use very boring generic terms. It requires some homework, in my opinion, if you want it to be effective.

    For the price (about $5 per MONTH), the web beats any other type of advertising - hands down!

    Last edited: Aug 12, 2007
  20. Paul Cascio

    Paul Cascio SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Tony, your website looks good and I agree with a lot of what you say. There are a percentage of people who do almost everything online except eat and sleep. Yellow Pages however is still the #1 resource for find local services, such as plumbing, remodeling or picture framing.

    I too would stay away from advertising with any of the online "Yellow Pages" directories. There are too many and are used by too few. Google Local is the way to go.

    As a suggestion, I would add your zipcode to your Title and Keywords metatags. (You're below the fold right now with a zipcode search.) Many local searches are done simply by adding the zipcode. For example, want to know what movies are playing at what times? Google, Movie times and include your zip.
  21. JohnR

    JohnR MGF, Master Grumble Framer

    Years ago, I was a client to a few local frame shops (before I framed for myself). As a customer, I can say that I would use the yellow pages above anything else. Even today with the WWW, I'd likely look for local businesses using the yellow pages. IMO, The smallest sized add the allows for a graphic, slogan and directions is all you need, such as "JR's Custom Framing","Super Dee Duper framing", Right next to bla bla's on 9th Street.

    I'd suggest a one page website with a few pictures of your store and a little about your business. No need to go crazy here. Be sure you put in key words so you can be found in a search quickly by local, such as "Dayton Ohio picture framer".
  22. surferbill

    surferbill SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    I got talked into signing up for the YellowBook this year, in addition to the

    AT&T yellow pages I've been in for 26 years. It's very confusing to be in both

    books. Next year I will drop one of them, if I can figure out which one is

    which. I'm also trying to improve my web site, as I believe this will be better

    and more effective advertising in the future.

    Ocean Art
  23. j Paul

    j Paul PFG, Picture Framing God

  24. Dave

    Dave SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Gee, jP, I knew their was a reason I respected you ...you're older than me.


    I'm 52 and I actually am using the internet more and more for phone numbers and such. I think it's because I can never find my magnifying glasses when I need to look up numbers in the book ...and I was one who found it funny when I discovered that The Reader's Digest had a large print edition!

  25. B. Newman

    B. Newman SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    They're not calling it "large print" anymore - it's comfort print! :p

    About the YP...

    We only advertise the caning part of our business in the YP (and our caning customers, many times, become framing customers...)

    We have an "in-line" box ad in the Real Yellow Pages in three different books/areas. It brings in a "chunk" of our customers. That and the shows we do every year (along with our work for refinishers and restaurants) pretty much makes up our inflow of work. (Less than $150 per month for all, including web link.)

    But the one thing that I'm impressed with the YP now is how they've redone the web search. If I go to yellowpages.com and type in the catagory, and the state or zip then it immediately gives me every listing that has that in either its title OR its listing segment.

    Then there is a place to refine the search to either a wider or smaller area.

    And the map capability is MUCH better than anything I've found online.

    As for my own use - I'm finding myself using the online search much more than the book (but I keep one of the small "companion books" in my van.)
  26. TessaE

    TessaE CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2

  27. Mike Labbe

    Mike Labbe Member, Former moderator team volunteer

    Everyone gets a free listing on the big sites like yellowpages.com, superpages.com, bigyellow.com, etc. They automatically add everyone based on the phone listings. They sell optional ads for higher placements, but otherwise it usually is done alphabetically.

    Google is my preferred phone book, but once in a while i'll check out superpages.com if i want a list of sites included in a category based format - ones that dont have websites. I havent touched a phone book in years, other than to see our ads. :)

    The irony: Our yellow pages rep called while i was typing this message! :0 Theyre starting to do direct mailing of a magazine to homes and want $2400 for an ad in this publication.
  28. TGFU

    TGFU CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2

    Mike, Are you sure about that? We are not included on yellowpages.com, and our Rep just sold it to us. We were told that there were packages that included it and those that did not.
  29. j Paul

    j Paul PFG, Picture Framing God

  30. Jerry Ervin

    Jerry Ervin PFG, Picture Framing God

    That freebie is for a limited time.

    My time has expired and I just can't justify the $194 per month they want to make the listing permanent.
  31. Mike Labbe

    Mike Labbe Member, Former moderator team volunteer

    Well it may be for a limited time. It has been free for 5 years so far though... I can't imagine them changing it any time soon :)

    They charge extra for bold, inverse, listing in other cities or statewide, listing above other folks, etc.

    We're just on the freebie here and do well. In fact, we've never paid a dime for any type of internet marketing or search engine positioning, and we're doing ok.

    There are probably hundreds of yellow page type advertising folks out there, most of them are opportunists and not the real directory that is (or was until recently) affiliated with the phone company. ie: superpages.com I believe they spun it off from the paper books about a year ago.

  32. TessaE

    TessaE CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2

    They were charging me $90 per month for it, and I just did not feel it to be justified.
  33. Dave

    Dave SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Typical of yellow page advertising rate cards ...Mm-mm what will this sucker pay?
  34. B. Newman

    B. Newman SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Typing in Newman Valley Studio on both superpages.com and bigyellow.com both turned up nada. Typing it in on both yellowpages.com and realpages.com went to our listing and web link.

    It seems that superpages and bigyellow are the same company, and yellowpages and realpages are another company altogether.
  35. AWG

    AWG SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    My only question regarding superpages.com, yellowpages.com. verizon.com, etc. etc. - how many people actually use THOSE over yahoo or google??? Our rep bragged about how many milions of searches a year - what about the billions on those sites?? I'm pretty certain that in NC you get a free listing if you're in the YP, and have the opportunity to move up with various combinations of upgrades for around $100/month.

    I have only used them to see where we were and make sure we were listed. never used any of them to actually search for something. Maybe it's just me.
  36. Kirstie

    Kirstie PFG, Picture Framing God

    Yes, it is a package deal with our color yellow pages ad (AT&T). In order to get the deal we get we had to take out the internet listing.I bought some upgrades but I don't see any result. Get yourself listed on Yelp or Yahoo Local, or any of the dozens of review sites to improve your rankings.Ask good customers to review you. Start trading links with art related sites, people you know. Change your site and your blog once a week even if it is only a word or two. Make sure you have titles and keywords and descriptions for every page on your site. All that will get your more hits on your site than yellow pages listings. That is, if you have a site. If you don't, my humble advice is to start one because at this point in time, it may well be your best source of advertising. Much of this info is what I learned from John R's class at WCAF and it has improved my rankings and results 100 fold.

    I have not checked our web stats lately to search for incoming clicks from this site, but I do not expect to find many. I find a lot more from the Grumble! You guys are active clickers!
  37. AWG

    AWG SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    First time I've visited your site - now I KNOW I need to update!
  38. Kirstie

    Kirstie PFG, Picture Framing God

    You guys are the ones who inspired me to write the press releases on the visualization. Strange, because the last articles on us picked up on the 30 years and the DIY aspect, but I wrote to the press about technology.

    Anyway, you have a great site! I love the animation, or whatever you call it, on your home page. I want my manager (web guru) to help me make something similar for one of the boxes on our home page so we can show off some of our new CMC creations and other examples of our work. Getting time with him is always hard to schedule as we have so much other work pressing.

    Your site is so inspiring! Our blog site is much easier to update with photos and content--I can get an entry up in just a few minutes-- but the web site takes so much time, and more expertise, except for changing simple text, which I should do more often.
  39. PaulSF

    PaulSF PFG, Picture Framing God

    Fun with Telemarketers

    I just got one of those calls from some chump in Bangalore, calling on behalf of USDirectory.com or something like that, wanting to waste my time. I told him the owner or manager wasn't in, but if he would give me his phone number I would have the owner or manager call him back later. So David (or Frank, or whatever his name wasn't) gives me an 800 number. So I call it back a minute later, and ask to speak to the person in charge of custom framing and procurement of art. It takes a couple of minutes for the person who answered to figure it out, and they answered "oh, is this a telemarketing call?" I respond, "yes, it is. You folks are always doing that to me, and now it's my turn to give you a telemarketing call. Sucks to be you, doesn't it!"

    By the way, their number is 800-632-2227, and it costs THEM money every time someone calls them. Have at it, kids!
  40. Dave

    Dave SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Paul ...you crack me up.

    Now ...go frame something!!!

    :D :smileyshot22: :D
  41. Jerry Ervin

    Jerry Ervin PFG, Picture Framing God

    I'm going to call them and act like a credit card processor.

    I got 3 phone calls yesterday from credit card processors.


    I really feel like the 'Do Not Call List' should apply to businesses too.

    Why oh why does our loving guvment believe that we should not have the same rights as a home telephone?
  42. Val

    Val PFG, Picture Framing God

    I want to know how they even know if it's a business or not. When I registered both shop numbers (regular and fax) on the national do-not-call list, and my home phone# at home, I only had to register by my phone numbers, with no additional information(residential or business).

    I never get credit card processors calling at home....how do they know??
  43. PaulSF

    PaulSF PFG, Picture Framing God

    Maybe because they call during the day, and you aren't home, so they hang up.
  44. David N Waldmann

    David N Waldmann SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    You don't and I don't, but the phone company knows what lines are residential. I would assume that the DoNotCall registry has access to the list and only registers legitimate ones.
  45. Val

    Val PFG, Picture Framing God

    I'm assuming some telemarketers did get the do-not-call message, because not long after I registered, my junk calls dramatically declined. I was getting so many per day, as well as fax spams, and now I might get one every few days, and rarely any fax spams anymore. When I do get a call, I politely ask to be removed from their call list. If they call again, I ask once more and if they call again, I say I will be making a report to the Attorney General, and that usually works, amazingly!
  46. brian..k

    brian..k MGF, Master Grumble Framer

    A post back on the orriginal topic here.

    So I just finished up ordering my new ad for the ATT YP. Because we skipped last years advertising, our broker entered us into the system as a new client again which qualified us for first time purchasers discounts. Get this, we saved $3900 off of what we paid 2 years ago. We did reduce the size of our ad by one size but I couldn't be happier with the outcome.
  47. johnny

    johnny SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Well, I went in one phone book because the salesman spent more money here than the ad cost. It was delivered today and the picture framing section consists of me and one other. Jeeze. Hard to imagine that I won't get value out of that. It seems like companies are fleeing from these expensive things. Looking after the Picture Framing section to the Pizza section only 4 places have placed ads.
  48. cjmst3k

    cjmst3k SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    I advertise in two books - Verizon (official) and YellowBook. Between the two, I'm paying about $1k a month. Does it bring in as much as I'm spending? Probably not, but I do get a good number of people referring to it when they come in. Particularly the way I worded my ad - they'll quote part of it back to me.

    When customer's return over and over, that's when I see it actually profiting for us.

    ...btw - I've had constant problems when they publish our ads, for various reasons. I design our ad in photoshop, and have it specifically layed out - and they'll neglect to send a proof, and they mess around with the ad, changing around our logo and fonts... I complain, and they usually upgrade the following year's ad.... though they don't discount the current ad. I think their contract protects them from changes like that, even without our permission. So next year we're getting an upgrade from 1 color to full color at the same rate.
  49. TGFU

    TGFU CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2

    You are exactly right. We found that out first hand yesterday. In fact, according to the contract, they don't even have to give you a proof.
  50. Dave

    Dave SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    I always put a line through that clause in the contract and write in that the contract is null and void if a proof is not provided and approved prior to publication.

    You don't have to accept their terms.
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