Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 65

Thread: framing pastels

  1. #1
    Grumbler coppertop's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    middle of nowhere, SD
    Age
    47
    Posts
    34

    Default framing pastels

    its me again. haven't yet opened, did some reconstruction of my space, and now doing some overhauling of my outside areas, don't want to look like a junk yard when I finally get someone here! I have a tiny show (I do paintings) in sept, and that's when I'll start passing out flyers, putting a couple ads in locals. eek!

    in any case, this pertains to framing of my own pastel work. one gallery is telling me I MUST have mats! the spacer/wide moulding look is no good!~ the frames I use when I do go this route are wide, oil painting/plein air types, those kind that are nice and wide and heavy. this is no place for a skimpy wimpy moulding!

    when I do matting, I use off white, or some other neutral, and usually a frame not as wide or heavy as the aforementioned non-mat job.

    often, if its small, like 11x13 or so, I use mats. if it gets bigger than 18x24, I go no-mats due to the weight of glass. of course I do use a hidden mat/f.b. spacer under the window mat, or that spacer that hooks onto the glass if no-mat style.

    I think mr. crabby is just an opinionated fella. and that's fine, its his gallery, he can make the rules. others really like my larger pieces in no-mat style, including another gallery.

    do you have other ideas about framing pastels? as it is, I do some of each and just dont' take certain ones to mr. crabby.
    -chris
  2. Thread Sponsor

Sponsor Wanted



  • #2
    SGF Supreme Grumble Framer
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Worcester, MA
    Age
    61
    Posts
    4,401

    Default

    I frame some of my pastels sans mat.
    But, never works on paper, like Canson.
    If I am using no mats, I use heavy sanded paper like Wallis.
    (of course I sometimes mat sanded paper as well. Remember to build a float mat when doing so.)
    This minimizes potential for cockling.
    Also, remember not to put points in too tight.
    Cliff Wilson, MCPF
    Immediate Past President of New England PPFA & Former Director on the International Board of PPFA

    The Best Custom Picture Framing in Worcester, MA - Website

  • #3
    SPFG Supreme Picture Framer God prospero's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    The Grand Duchy of Lincolnyshire
    Age
    100
    Posts
    14,986

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by coppertop View Post
    do you have other ideas about framing pastels? .
    That's a bit of a how-long-is-a-piece-of-string question without seeing the work. Any photos you can post up?
    Me transmitte sursum Caledoni.

  • #4
    SPFG Supreme Picture Framer God Jeff Rodier's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Myrtle Beach, S.C.
    Age
    52
    Posts
    15,702

    Default

    Almost always matted with few exceptions. Most important thing I can say is spray your pastels because the pastels fall off the paper and your work disappears over time. I had one customer spent nearly $1,000 on a family portrait pastel and then sent many of her friends to the same artist. She brought it in to be reframed and most of the work had fallen off of the paper.

    When she asked me why and what to do I explained that the artist had not sprayed the work and knew this would happen. She then proceeded to have the artist redo the work at no charge and sent every one of her friends back to him to have their work redone. About $10,000 worth of pastels all had to be reworked at no charge and I guarantee all of them were sprayed the second time. I always out a pastel artist for not using spray fixative when the customer brings a piece to be framed or reframed.
    Art & Frame Outlet
    204 George Bishop Pkwy
    (Across from the Hard Rock Park)
    Myrtle Beach, SC 29579
    (843) 236-4370

  • #5
    SGF Supreme Grumble Framer Grey Owl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Lakewood, CO
    Posts
    2,197

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by coppertop View Post
    ......
    I go no-mats due to the weight of glass. ...
    -chris
    The weight of the glass doesn't bother me as long as I'm using a big enough frame to support the package, and the correct hanging methods.

    For 2.5mm glass (eg Tru-Vue CC or Museum), the weight is 1.13 pounds per square foot. So a 24 x 36 inside dimensions would be 6 square feet, or approximately 6.8 pounds.

    good luck.
    Russ Wood / Grey Owl Framing
    Original Art and Specialty Pieces Deserve Uncommon Frames

    www.GreyOwlFraming.com
    http://www.facebook.com/GreyOwlFraming

  • #6
    PFG Picture Framing God neilframer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Phoenix, AZ
    Posts
    5,281

    Default

    I never spray pastels and most of the pastel artists I work with don't want to spray either.
    Spraying can change the look of the pastel and even leave tiny spots.
    I work with one artist who does 40"x60" pastels with incredible detail. I don't know how she has the patience.
    Framing her work is a nail-biter. She draws on 800 grit sandpaper.
    It requires special handling and I have framed hundreds and hundreds of pastels without trouble.
    I never turn them face-down for fitting.
    I always space the mat away from the artwork to allow for any drop-off.
    Support for People with Oral and Head and Neck Cancer
    http://www.spohnc.org
    "My time is a piece of wax falling on a termite, who's chokin' on the splinters"

  • #7
    SGF Supreme Grumble Framer Grey Owl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Lakewood, CO
    Posts
    2,197

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by neilframer View Post
    I never spray pastels and most of the pastel artists I work with don't want to spray either.
    Spraying can change the look of the pastel and even leave tiny spots.
    I work with one artist who does 40"x60" pastels with incredible detail. I don't know how she has the patience.
    Framing her work is a nail-biter. She draws on 800 grit sandpaper.
    It requires special handling and I have framed hundreds and hundreds of pastels without trouble.
    I never turn them face-down for fitting.
    I always space the mat away from the artwork to allow for any drop-off.
    Yes - have the space, and always fit by hand-squeezing the points into the wood, instead of the jarring of the mechanical point drivers that can jar the pastel.
    Russ Wood / Grey Owl Framing
    Original Art and Specialty Pieces Deserve Uncommon Frames

    www.GreyOwlFraming.com
    http://www.facebook.com/GreyOwlFraming

  • #8
    PFG Picture Framing God neilframer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Phoenix, AZ
    Posts
    5,281

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey Owl View Post
    Yes - have the space, and always fit by hand-squeezing the points into the wood, instead of the jarring of the mechanical point drivers that can jar the pastel.
    I even use a hand screwdriver to install hardware to prevent any vibration from the screw gun.
    Support for People with Oral and Head and Neck Cancer
    http://www.spohnc.org
    "My time is a piece of wax falling on a termite, who's chokin' on the splinters"

  • #9
    SPFG Supreme Picture Framer God Jeff Rodier's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Myrtle Beach, S.C.
    Age
    52
    Posts
    15,702

    Default

    I won't spray the art for the customer either. As far as changing the look it doesn't matter because the work will fall off of the paper over time which turns it into garbage. If the artist isn't capable of finishing their work they have no business selling it. I do a lot of framing for pastel artists and make it clear that if anybody ever comes in with one of their pieces where the artwork is disappearing they deserve to have the work redone or demand a full refund.

    A competent artist learns their craft and understands any color shift that may occur while using a fixative. If you purchase a car that has been painted but not clear coated and the paint peels you get a refund or a new paint job. If a framer completes a frame job that just falls apart after a year the customer deserves a refund. Shotty work is shotty work and all the pastel artists that want to argue otherwise better hope one of their customers doesn't show up in my store asking questions.

    As far as possible spotting with sprays that is less of an issue today than ever before but the artist is able to work over the fixative to correct any issue and respray. I have never seen a product where people argue a known defect being it will evaporate by falling away from the paper is an acceptable product. This is no different than an emulsion photograph that has not been through the stop bath because it will turn black. Can you argue that is an acceptable product. The result is the same.
    Art & Frame Outlet
    204 George Bishop Pkwy
    (Across from the Hard Rock Park)
    Myrtle Beach, SC 29579
    (843) 236-4370

  • #10
    PFG Picture Framing God neilframer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Phoenix, AZ
    Posts
    5,281

    Default

    I don't do "Shoddy" work and neither do the artists I frame for.
    I've only been framing for 43 years, what do I know?
    Hey, do whatever floats your boat.
    Support for People with Oral and Head and Neck Cancer
    http://www.spohnc.org
    "My time is a piece of wax falling on a termite, who's chokin' on the splinters"

  • #11
    SPFG Supreme Picture Framer God Jeff Rodier's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Myrtle Beach, S.C.
    Age
    52
    Posts
    15,702

    Default

    Evaporating art should not be sold but only given away.
    Art & Frame Outlet
    204 George Bishop Pkwy
    (Across from the Hard Rock Park)
    Myrtle Beach, SC 29579
    (843) 236-4370

  • #12
    PFG Picture Framing God neilframer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Phoenix, AZ
    Posts
    5,281

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Rodier View Post
    Evaporating art should not be sold but only given away.
    In your opinion.
    Support for People with Oral and Head and Neck Cancer
    http://www.spohnc.org
    "My time is a piece of wax falling on a termite, who's chokin' on the splinters"

  • #13
    SPFG Supreme Picture Framer God Jeff Rodier's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Myrtle Beach, S.C.
    Age
    52
    Posts
    15,702

    Default

    ...and framing that falls apart just because it wasn't properly constructed is all good too, right?
    Art & Frame Outlet
    204 George Bishop Pkwy
    (Across from the Hard Rock Park)
    Myrtle Beach, SC 29579
    (843) 236-4370

  • #14
    PFG Picture Framing God neilframer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Phoenix, AZ
    Posts
    5,281

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Rodier View Post
    ...and framing that falls apart just because it wasn't properly constructed is all good too, right?
    My framing doesn't fall apart. The pastels that I frame that sell for thousands of dollars don't evaporate either.
    Giving me the crazy emoticon is just special.
    Now you are putting words in my mouth so, bottom line is I'm not arguing with you.
    I don't care what you do or how you frame.
    Believe it or not, there are hundreds of framers on the Grumble who know what they're doing.
    Go ahead and have the last word as you must.
    Support for People with Oral and Head and Neck Cancer
    http://www.spohnc.org
    "My time is a piece of wax falling on a termite, who's chokin' on the splinters"

  • #15
    SPFG Supreme Picture Framer God Jeff Rodier's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Myrtle Beach, S.C.
    Age
    52
    Posts
    15,702

    Default

    Never mentioned your framing but simply stated the artists need to use fixative. You stated if the artwork turns to carp that is acceptable and I compared that to frame jobs. Take it however you like but if a customer comes in with a $10,000 piece of art where the pastel has fallen away from the paper I will tell them to get a refund from the artist because the artist knew it was going to happen.
    Art & Frame Outlet
    204 George Bishop Pkwy
    (Across from the Hard Rock Park)
    Myrtle Beach, SC 29579
    (843) 236-4370

  • #16
    PFG Picture Framing God neilframer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Phoenix, AZ
    Posts
    5,281

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Rodier View Post
    You stated if the artwork turns to carp that is acceptable and I compared that to frame jobs.
    You see, this is a problem.
    Where did I "state" that if the artwork turns to carp that is acceptable?
    You just made that up. I never said that in any of my posts.
    You can't just make up statements and say that I said them.
    Take a look at my posts. Never said it.
    I have never seen the artwork turn to carp, nor do I think that it is acceptable.
    Support for People with Oral and Head and Neck Cancer
    http://www.spohnc.org
    "My time is a piece of wax falling on a termite, who's chokin' on the splinters"

  • #17
    SPFG Supreme Picture Framer God Framar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    Buffalo, New York, USA/Fort Erie, Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    24,089

    Cool

    IMHO, there are too many variables to make a blanket statement that all pastels need to be sprayed or all unsprayed pastels will fall off the paper. I usually recommend matting (with a gutter spacer) but there are exceptions to every rule.

    It depends on the brand of the pastel, the kind and tooth of the paper, and the hand of the artist.

    I own a pastel which is well over a hundred years old, I took it apart and cleaned it once (40 years ago) and there was a slight haze of pastel dust on the inside of the glass, but I swear to God it is as bright and vibrant today as the day it was made. The visible areas of paper have yellowed a good deal over the century, but the pastel is intact. This was never matted, always pressed up against the glass.

  • #18
    SPFG Supreme Picture Framer God prospero's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    The Grand Duchy of Lincolnyshire
    Age
    100
    Posts
    14,986

    Default

    I was just about to say that Mar.

    It's up to the artist whether to fix or not. Best done as the work progresses. Do a bit. Fix it. Do a bit more .....etc. If you try to fix a pastel with a lot of pigment on right at the end, you can end up with something looking, errrrr... unpastely. Might as well have used gouache to start with. Put fixative however used will alter the look of the work.

    Fixative is basically spray varnish.
    Me transmitte sursum Caledoni.

  • #19
    SPFG Supreme Picture Framer God prospero's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    The Grand Duchy of Lincolnyshire
    Age
    100
    Posts
    14,986

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by prospero View Post
    I was just about to say that Mar.
    And before you say, "How did you know I had a framed pastel that I cleaned the glass of 40 years ago.........." I didn't mean that bit.
    Me transmitte sursum Caledoni.

  • #20
    Grumbler
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Guam
    Posts
    39

    Default

    I am happy to frame unfixed pastels and will continue to do so. It is somewhat of a specialty and maybe best not left to someone who is not used to doing so. Then again, I never felt it was my place to tell the artists that support me how to do their jobs.

  • #21
    Moderator Susan May's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    moved to Clermont, Florida
    Posts
    5,770

    Default

    1) Fixatives have not been properly tested for longevity, and therefore should not be sprayed on ANY artwork. They have the possibility of turning the paper yellow because of the aerosol's chemicals.
    2) Spraying fixative on a finished pastel can make the lighter colors fade away.
    3) Pastels have been around for hundreds of years... they don't evaperate. Water evaperates.
    4) Fixatives were designed for students to be able to work on chalk drawings, and be able to carry them to and from class without damaging their studies too much. They were not intended for artwork which would be eventually framed.


    Last and not the least...
    5) Proper framing and handling will protect a pastel from shedding.

    Now, if you don't mind, I am going to go and enjoy looking at my first pastel, which I framed, and have moved with me through around six moves. It still looks as good as the day I drew it... almost 30 years ago.
    Sue May, Moderator.

    Lead, follow, or get out of the way.

  • #22
    SGF Supreme Grumble Framer Grey Owl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Lakewood, CO
    Posts
    2,197

    Smile

    I'm not a conservator, so I can only base the need for fixing on my own experience.

    I have a pastel in my own collection that was done almost 30 years ago. It has been on display continually since we purchased it. It was framed by the artist (and not me) and it has no fixative.

    The only visible damage is the darkening of the bevel because of the paper mat used. Consequently, based on my experience, I'm more concerned about using a proper mat vs. my concern about making sure the pastel has been fixed.
    Russ Wood / Grey Owl Framing
    Original Art and Specialty Pieces Deserve Uncommon Frames

    www.GreyOwlFraming.com
    http://www.facebook.com/GreyOwlFraming

  • #23
    PFG Picture Framing God neilframer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Phoenix, AZ
    Posts
    5,281

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Susan May View Post
    1) Fixatives have not been properly tested for longevity, and therefore should not be sprayed on ANY artwork. They have the possibility of turning the paper yellow because of the aerosol's chemicals.
    2) Spraying fixative on a finished pastel can make the lighter colors fade away.
    3) Pastels have been around for hundreds of years... they don't evaperate. Water evaperates.
    4) Fixatives were designed for students to be able to work on chalk drawings, and be able to carry them to and from class without damaging their studies too much. They were not intended for artwork which would be eventually framed.


    Last and not the least...
    5) Proper framing and handling will protect a pastel from shedding.

    Now, if you don't mind, I am going to go and enjoy looking at my first pastel, which I framed, and have moved with me through around six moves. It still looks as good as the day I drew it... almost 30 years ago.
    Word!
    Susan, you've nailed it. (especially the proper framing and handling).

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey Owl View Post
    I'm not a conservator, so I can only base the need for fixing on my own experience.

    I have a pastel in my own collection that was done almost 30 years ago. It has been on display continually since we purchased it. It was framed by the artist (and not me) and it has no fixative.

    The only visible damage is the darkening of the bevel because of the paper mat used. Consequently, based on my experience, I'm more concerned about using a proper mat vs. my concern about making sure the pastel has been fixed.
    Russ, I agree 100%.
    Support for People with Oral and Head and Neck Cancer
    http://www.spohnc.org
    "My time is a piece of wax falling on a termite, who's chokin' on the splinters"

  • #24
    PFG Picture Framing God EllenAtHowards's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Hagerstown, MD; you've driven by here
    Age
    69
    Posts
    6,543

    Default

    If you are still reading, Coppertop, after THAT little contretemps, don't forget to reverse the bevels on your mats so that any shedding pastel has a place to hide, rather than sitting on an otherwise pristine white bevel.

    And, although we sell it, we do not recommend fixing pastels. Pastels suffer from 'inherent vice', otherwise known as 'it is what it is'. Fixative won't solidify it any more than spraying a sand castle with water binds the sand. It is still powdery behind the crust.
    If you'd do what I told you the first time, I wouldn't have to be so bossy.

  • #25
    MGF Master Grumble Framer Tommy P's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Mid North Indiana
    Age
    62
    Posts
    842

    Default

    And, although we sell it, we do not recommend fixing pastels. Pastels suffer from 'inherent vice', otherwise known as 'it is what it is'. Fixative won't solidify it any more than spraying a sand castle with water binds the sand. It is still powdery behind the crust.[/QUOTE]

    Exactly Hellen! Fixative is no guarantee that it will prevent any dusting/falling. And it will change the appearance somewhat. Artists are darn picky about the appearance of their work for some crazy reason.
    "I'm afraid of a world run by adults who were never spanked as kids and got trophies just for participating."

  • #26
    SPFG Supreme Picture Framer God Jeff Rodier's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Myrtle Beach, S.C.
    Age
    52
    Posts
    15,702

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tommy P View Post
    And it will change the appearance somewhat. Artists are darn picky about the appearance of their work for some crazy reason.
    Many only care about it the day it is completed. I worked in very high end restoration for a couple of years and pastels were always a huge question of just let it look the way it looks or restore it which means it really can't be returned to it's pre-restoration condition once completed. In a high end restoration it can takes 6 months to a year just making the decision of whether or not to proceed.

    By using a spacer behind the mat you can just tell the buyer if they want to enjoy the beauty of the artwork they first purchased they can just look down in the spacer and imagine all of that dust in the place where it was when they bought the art.

    Oil pastel works itself into paper so it lasts and binds to itself which is much less of a problem. The majority of pastels I am seeing are also done on papers that fade regardless of UV glass if no fixative is used. Many a customer ask me if their previous framer really used the Conservation glass that they charged for since the artwork and paper are fading away.
    Art & Frame Outlet
    204 George Bishop Pkwy
    (Across from the Hard Rock Park)
    Myrtle Beach, SC 29579
    (843) 236-4370

  • #27
    SPFG Supreme Picture Framer God blackiris's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Sandwich, IL
    Age
    89
    Posts
    10,620

    Default

    I hate pastels and cringe everytime one comes across the counter. Which is A LOT.
    ONe of my artists... uses a fixative... they are perfect. No color change or anything.
    The ones that are NOT fixed........ those people get to sign a waiver... that I am in no way responsible for what happens during or after framing.

    Fixatives are a great product. I use them and I ALSO TEACH MY ART STUDENTS (YES I am an artist and I teach) to use them on their pastels and color pencil work.
    SO THERE.

    To make a blanket statement that fixatives shouldnt be used is CRAZY...... unless you are a chemist....... and can tell me
    it harms the artwork. I have yet to see anything proven. Just a bunch of hearsay.
    Sometimes my eye-rolls are the most exercise I get all day.......

  • #28
    Moderator Susan May's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    moved to Clermont, Florida
    Posts
    5,770

    Default

    Blackiris, I have personally seen spray fixative damage my own pastel in an art class. All of the yellow and white faded when it was sprayed, and did not return when the spray dried. I had to redo HOURS of work to fix the problem. The only good thing, was the teacher watched it happen, and gave me extra time to redo the project.

    Have I seen sprays work without causing damge? Sure. But will I risk it on my own? NEVER AGAIN. Plus, I will never suggest any other person to use a spray on their hard work. The possibility of damage is too great.
    Sue May, Moderator.

    Lead, follow, or get out of the way.

  • #29
    PFG Picture Framing God RParrish's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    A2 Michigan
    Age
    47
    Posts
    7,494

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by neilframer View Post
    I never spray pastels and most of the pastel artists I work with don't want to spray either.
    Spraying can change the look of the pastel and even leave tiny spots.

    I always space the mat away from the artwork to allow for any drop-off.
    Ditto, I guarantee the day you volunteer to use spray fixative on a clients art and it spits out a big drop of fixative on the nose of a persons portrait is the last day you will use fixative. If they want to do on their let them. I personally don't think it works anyways and yes I used to do pastels too.

    Spacers under mat and reverse bevel helps too for any drifting pigment. I have to hand fit it too, no point guns.
    Randy Parrish CPF, Parrish Fine Framing & Art

    PPFA on Facebook Great Lakes PPFA
    Director: PPFA Board of Directors, GLPPFA President

  • #30
    Grumbler coppertop's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    middle of nowhere, SD
    Age
    47
    Posts
    34

    Default

    whew! I do not use fix unless I feel the need to while I am working on a piece. very rarely at the end. no matter the brand it changed the color or texture and I didn't like it. and those blobs of 'fix spit'. grrr! it also *never* makes it so it can't smear. if it did that, with little chance in apearance, I'd be using it daily. until then, nah.

    works on paper let go more dust than the sanded papers of today, imho. I only use artist's sanded papers, for both the feel of working, the results and the non-spraying option.

    and you may cuss me now, but I also use the point driver. If a painting can't handle some points, there is not a chance of it surviving being shown, moved, etc. I have shipped all over, and they arrive just fine. when done working, I take the painting, still taped to the working board, and 'clack' it on my cement floor. I am not gentle here, I really give it a crack! then spank the back too. a small cloud usually is seen, then its over. frame it up. here is a sample of my work.

    I often do a reverse bevel because I simple like the look. not so fond of that white line around my paintings all the time. some work with it, some it seems distracting to me. esp a darker piece with a light mat.

    I had a museum show a few years ago. one piece fell off the wall, shattered the glass, damaged the mat. the painting had 2 barely see-able smudges. they had it reframed for me., altho I asked them not to, said it was just fine, no big deal. I stressed a dozen times to NOT use fix. they did, and now that piece is so dang dark, I am about to just burn it.

    gold rush.jpg

  • Go
    Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

    Posting Permissions

    • You may not post new threads
    • You may not post replies
    • You may not post attachments
    • You may not edit your posts
    •  
    Wizard Ad