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Vermont Hardwoods open and shipping

Museum Glass & window glare

Henry Montville

Grumbler in Training
Messages
6
Hi,
We are working with an interior designer who purchased a high end piece of pastel art. We designed the framing to include spacers & museum glass. The original pastel is on board and not paper. The designer was very happy with the finished piece. She brought it to her clients house to hang it, and after a few weeks the client has expressed how unhappy she is with the glass and glare.

Its hanging in a dinning room, above a mantel, directly across on the wall are two very large mirrors. Hanging over the dinning room table is a long modern chandelier, with pieces of mirror also in the design. On the other end of the room is a large wall of windows to an indoor/outdoor sun porch. So a lot of light sources.
I was invited to the house to see it, and suggest what we can do to improve the visibility of the artwork.

Unless you are directly in front of the pastel it is very hard to see the beauty of this artwork. I tried holding it at a slight angle to see if that would help at all, it made a slight difference but not enough.

Any suggestions?
 

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shayla

WOW Framer
Messages
30,988
I've heard that lights angled at around 30 degrees can help with reflections. I don't know if this works, but perhaps they would change the way the other light bounces off? If this is crazy, fine, but it's an idea. You could approximate it pretty easily by carrying lights up a ladder and pointing them at it. Changing the angle at which it hangs could also help, but no way she's going to want it tipped.
 

framah

PFG, Picture Framing God
Messages
8,566
Possibly show her how much worse it would be with any other glass and suggest that it hang somewhere else?
Also suggest they remove the mirrors... ( and the chandelier) ??
I doubt they will want to do what needs to be done in that room to solve the problem.

One of the biggest problems is that it is a very dark piece so everything shows up.

Sometimes there is nothing you can do to overcome what the customer does with the art once it leaves your shop.
Good luck and don't knock yourself out trying to make this work..I don't see how it can work there.
 

wpfay

Forum Support Team Angry_Badger
Team member
Forum Donor
Messages
10,386
This is why I quiz people about light sources and will lend them a sample to hold in place to see if the anti-reflective glazing is effective in their situation. It's a lot of money to sink into a project if it isn't efficacious, or even if it is, but that's what they are paying for.
There isn't much that can be done short of dimming the existing light sources and add dedicated oblique lighting, as Shayla suggested. You won't overcome the problem by adding oblique light alone, the others have to be dimmed or eliminated.
Anti-reflective glazing works best in spaces that have no ambient light.
 
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RoboFramer

PFG, Picture Framing God
Messages
8,297
I always tell people it works best head on in suitable /Ideal lighting conditions - the conditions described are not. I also tilt my POS comparison frame about to catch lights to show what I mean.

These 3 frames have the same glass.
 

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Joe B

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Forum Donor
Messages
4,814
That is one of the problems with Museum Glass. For the price there shouldn't be that type of glare but I'm sure it is near impossible to get away from it with Museum Glass. I have suggested Conservation Reflection Control when this has come up and the people that have changed to CRC seem to like it. Some won't change because they are concerned about the slight distortion. It may be worth it to suggest it.
 

bruce papier

MGF, Master Grumble Framer
Messages
825
I'm with the always wise Framah on this one. About the only thing you can do is trundle out to their home with glass samples and see if anything works better. This problem, by the way, is how I've ended up selling so little Museum Glass. People feel that a material that costs that much should be reflection free in any situation.
 

shayla

WOW Framer
Messages
30,988
I'm with the always wise Framah on this one. About the only thing you can do is trundle out to their home with glass samples and see if anything works better. This problem, by the way, is how I've ended up selling so little Museum Glass. People feel that a material that costs that much should be reflection free in any situation.
This is interesting. We sell Conservation Clear maybe 75% of the time and Museum 20%. In my years of selling Museum, we've had one job come back for reflection issues. During our initial glass talk, I tell people that it does have reflections, but far fewer than the other. I wonder if having said this prepares them for it? How do you handle the talk? (Unless you're fine not selling it, in which case, how about those Dodgers?)
 

Larry Peterson

PFG, Picture Framing God
Messages
8,145
how about those Dodgers?
If you are going to say it, yous has to use the proper vernacular..................Hous bout doez Dodgers?;)
 
Spring

Pat Murphey

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Messages
13,344
Some people want egg in their beer, geez. Just replace the glass, refund the difference and let them suffer the real reflections on a dark piece.

IMO the fuzzy reflection of reflection control is the worst of three.
 

framah

PFG, Picture Framing God
Messages
8,566
I agree with the much wiser Pat that the fuzzy reflection control is the worst of the three. :beer:
 

Rick Granick

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Messages
18,883
If someone has a tricky reflection situation they are trying to overcome, I explain that Museum Glass is the best product available to minimize reflection, but that in certain situations, a degree fo reflection is still possible. Ultimately, controlling the light source (such as installing ceiling-mounted eyeball or track fixtures) is the solution. Or, as suggested, hanging art that has no glass in that location.
 

bruce papier

MGF, Master Grumble Framer
Messages
825
It would be a vast understatement to say I don't push Museum Glass. I show people who are interested, but I always point out the glass does show reflections when view from an angle. The problem I run into is, very frequently, the Museum Glass costs about what the customer wanted to spend on the whole package. I just had a really bad experience with Museum Glass when it first became widely available. I'd say 80% of the Museum Glass I sold came back to be in the hands of none too pleased customers. It just didn't meet their expectations given the price.
 

framah

PFG, Picture Framing God
Messages
8,566
I have a couple of my photos hanging in the store with Museum glass and a couple with consv. glass.
This lets them see the difference and how much or little of the overhead lights and the door/windows reflect. They can see right there in a brightly lit room, the difference.

They understand there will be a reflection but it is considerably less.
Never had one come back yet.
Just sold a 16x20 piece today.
I also always price it by the full light it comes out of.
 
Jack Richeson & Co

Ylva

Forum Support Team
Team member
Forum Donor
Messages
14,197
I sell most jobs with MG.
Expectations can be guided. Besides the truvue displays, I have lots of framed samples with all the different glass choices hanging on the wall.
My sales talk varies. I always point out that yes,, there is glass. There will be reflection depending on where it hangs but this is the best glass on the market right now. It gives you the truest view while protecting your art.

I show it at different angles.
I have never had a piece returned because of problems with reflection.
 

Joe B

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Forum Donor
Messages
4,814
I sell most jobs with MG.
Like you, the majority of my sales are Museum Glass (I absolutely hate the plastic divider though), I would have to say at least 65% of my glass sales is MG. My second is Conservation Reflection Control and for a number of reason; one - there is minimal reflection, second - with two 4 ply mats or less there is very little distortion (fuzzy). I sell Conservation Clear mainly to a few customers with low end projects and sometime to the rare commercial that I may do.

The few times that Museum has come back because of glare, I have offered to replace the MG with CRC and the people that have taken the CRC seem to be satisfied. The ones that decide to stick with the MG usually will display their art in a different location placing it at head level so there won't be the reflection that you will have when hanging it high. IMO, the majority of the problem with MG is when the customer displays improperly, art is meant to be seen at head level. At head level MG will mostly appear as if there is no glass installed. It is important to explain to the customer during the design interview about the placement of the art for display. Some still hang it improperly and those are generally the ones that come with concerns about glare. But with that said, there are times that no matter what level the MG is displayed there may be a glare for a number of reasons but mainly because of the light source, either mechanical or natural.

Personally I really like the clarity of the Museum Glass but I have to say that CRC has a nice softness to it that really compliments many different types of art. There is a place for all different types of framers glass, we just have to be open minded enough to know when to use the glass that will compliment the art and the framing best.
 
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neilframer

PFG, Picture Framing God
Messages
7,856
I almost always try to talk customers out of any fuzzy non glare option.
I don't like that it changes the artwork and mutes color and detail.
We have a display that shows the difference and often I will bring a piece of glass out and put it right on their artwork with or without any mats to show the differences.

For me, with Museum glass or AR glass, I would rather have a muted or darkened reflection that is better than regular or Conservation Clear and it still gives you the artwork with the detail and color as intended.

Most framed artwork is hung on the wall and it just becomes a background so any reflection is only if you focus on it directly and only in limited situations.
Just my opinion.
 
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Joe B

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Forum Donor
Messages
4,814
Neil, I agree the CRC mutes art but only if it there is a large separation (3 or more mats) from the art. I will definitely sell away from CRC if there is 3 or more mat in the fame package. I would much rather see the slight muting than seeing a reflection of my face or the bathroom door in the glasso_O For some art the CRC gives a softness that looks really good and in fact compliments the art far more than a reflection does. But like you, we all have an opinion and this is mine.
 
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Ylva

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14,197
I use CRC on very glossy photos, especially if they have imperfections and they almost always do.
I also don’t mind it on watercolors. I rarely use it on something with sharper lines.
However with a single mat, it doesn’t distort badly and I would go up to double mat with it.
I have samples all over my shop.
The choice is for the customer to make. I am just there to offer those choices
 

neilframer

PFG, Picture Framing God
Messages
7,856
Opinions can vary.
All opinions from those of us who are experienced framers are valid.
That's why we make the Big Bucks.........:cool:o_O;):kaffeetrinker-2::thumbsup:
 

tedh

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Messages
11,106
I use CRC on very glossy photos, especially if they have imperfections and they almost always do.
I also don’t mind it on watercolors. I rarely use it on something with sharper lines.
However with a single mat, it doesn’t distort badly and I would go up to double mat with it.
I have samples all over my shop.
The choice is for the customer to make. I am just there to offer those choices
Lots of common sense here tonight.
 
Framecon 2021

prospero

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Messages
19,185
Eventually someone will invent glass which has zero reflectivity. It would however be a nightmare
for the framer as you would not be able to see it. ☹

I agree with all the above comments. AR glass is quite uncanny but it's not a magic solution. Combined
with thoughtful light placement it is uncannily invisible. But you can't have it both ways.
 

Henry Montville

Grumbler in Training
Messages
6
Thank you all for your suggestions & comments! Not sure what they will decide but I think the best bet would be to hang something without glass in this part of the room. We shall see. Thank you all!
 

prospero

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Messages
19,185
I've noticed in the last 10 years or more a decline in the number of glazed artworks I frame.
I do maybe 90% of frames with no glass. Oils, acrylics, canvas prints and such. Very few large
glazed prints. This is probably to do with the market for so-called limited edition prints which
were very popular back in the '90s. 🤔
 

Joe B

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Forum Donor
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4,814
I've been seeing that with the limited edition prints on canvas which is just that, a print on canvas that my customers believe look better w/o glazing. I will do what my customers asks but I do give them the pros and cons and let them decide. Original oils and acrylics are generally not glazed though every once in a while a customer will surprise me with wanting spacers and glazing on that type of art too.
 

prospero

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Messages
19,185
It's a thought that glass in pictures is a relatively recent advent. It wasn't until the early 19th century that glass
was able to be made flat and thin enough for the purpose and then quite small sizes. Prior to that it was all egg tempera
and later on, oil paintings.
 
Spring
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