Frame is bleeding

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framerbob

framerbob

CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2
Joined
Aug 18, 2009
Posts
404
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The wild west
A customer called me and said a frame we did for where was leaking liquid out of it, I didn't really believe her but asked her to bring it in so I could have a look, when she did I said, "no way is that coming out of the frame, you must have some wood beams on the ceiling or something else that is dripping on to the frame."

However after a close look I determined that the sap was indeed coming out of the frame right through the finish. I took off the back and same thing all over the unfinished sided of the moulding. I dont know how long ago it started but the sap is now completely dry and yellowed. It also dripped onto the customers wall had she has been unable to find anything that will remove it.

Have you ever seen this before? sap 001.jpgsap 002.jpg Frame is LJ Sorrento
 
:nuts: Waiting to hear the rest of the story after you tell LJ about this. Wonder what explanation will come...


PS. Tell them it is bad enough you have to deal with this, so they should at least send you a joined frame at no charge to cut down on some of the work you have to do to replace this.
 
I made a few humidors, and lining inside usually done from cedar but I decided to use African Mahogany instead for the reason of potential bleeding. It happens. Poor choice of wood on manufacturer.
 
Wow, never seen that in my 40+ years of framing. My guess would have been the dripping of melted brown Bumpons from a frame hanging just above that one.
:popc: Rick
 
Honestly, I think you need to look one more time on it, I would. Really strange. Just doesn't look right.
 
It doesn't look right to me, either. It really looks like something else dripped on it,
rather than anything coming through the finish. We had a windowsill at the gallery
leak pitch several years ago, but it looked different than this. Have you tried calling
LJ to see if they've had any other reports of it?
 
P.S. Does the customer have a cleaning lady or other custodial staff?
 
I've seen examples where the liquid from melted Bumpons has spread out to contaminate good size swaths of both the back and sides of frames with an oily residue.
:kaffeetrinker_2: Rick
 
I would think that if sap is oozing from the wood, it would ooze out of the corners and along the unfinished parts of the wood. That's really bizarre. I would definitely send the frame back to LJ, they can use the serial number to investigate further.
 
Cut it in half and you will know what happened.

Last time I saw something like that was in the 70's or early 80's and it said "Hecho In Mexico" on the back of the frame.
 
This is so definitely a 3M Melting bumpons issue!

John
 
I've only seen this happen once and not nearly so extreme. That was on obeche, which you wouldn't expect and was just a small bubble of sap oozed through.

Wood is a natural product so who knows can happen. Can you see a crack in the gesso where the ooze is coming from?
 
John Ranes II said:
This is so definitely a 3M Melting bumpons issue!

John
Click to expand...

Agree. Gravity surely has a play in this. Was the frame lying flat or hung on a wall? Can't tell from the images.

I can say that even knowing about the 3M melting bumpons, we just found an example this summer from artwork hanging in our home that was framed in Alaska in the mid 80s. It sure makes a mess on white walls in a stairwell.
 
Can melted bump-ons seep into a dust cover? The photo looks like it has glass, thus a dust cover would be there? He did say he removed the backing to see the damage inside the frame.
 
Oh, yes. That stuff can ooze and flow. Saturated dust cover paper is common.
This is a fascinating scenario. Can't wait to find out the answer. Maybe we should hire the Mythbusters guys or Bill Nye the Science Guy to help figure it out.
Better yet, is Richard Feynman still around?

:cool: Rick
 
It loos like the older LJ frame.... I would think most framers know about the melting bump one HOPEFULLY.... And are not using them anymore.
 
Seen this before - it is called a stigmata. Best to call contact the Vatican. :smiley:
 
Did the customer put the frame under any type of wall light, Or had any heating going on underneath the frame? Causing the frame to react
 
It's not a very old frame; one of LJ's first FSC-certified lines, so, maybe five, six years ago? It's got a thick finish, and although crackled, it's surface decoration only. The more I look at the photos and the samples we have, the more I'm thinking there's external forces at work here. Also, it looks as though it's running down the profile as though the frame had been sitting horizontally, rather than on a wall when this happened, and thus if it did bleed on the wall, it had to have been already there before being put on the wall....

Just don't touch it -- it might be evil.
 
That line is not even 5 years old, 4 maybe at the most. I don't think it's a brownie bump-on.

I'd like to know what you found when you opened it up. The photos look like it came from the outside, but since you mentioned that you opened it up and clearly determined it came from the inside, I would like to see that too.

Interesting problem, glad it's not mine though ;)
 
Highly doubtful that it is a melting brown, curious about what the inside looks like. Did the sap ooze out of the glass in through it... meaning did something drip down the glass and into the frame package, something that got cleaned off the glass by the customer?

You say she said that her walls are stained. I vaguely recall that k2r was a recommended cleaner for the melting browns :) Maybe that could help her. Or maybe a stronger solvent, maybe a paste made with the Zud cleaner, that has oxalic acid in it, the only thing I have found to clean the sap stains on the walls of my log house. Of course as all the cleaners say, try it in an inconspicuous spot first, maybe along the baseboard behind the couch.

Wood home builders may be helpful in finding ways to clean sap off drywall. Katahdin Log Homes has a good list of builders on their site. Drywall interior walls help break up a log home's interior and the builders must have assuredly run into this problem. More likely them than any other contractor...

If it is a melting brown then good luck finding a cleaning agent.
 
Do the clients have cats? It looks like petromalt, a brown gel that I give to my cats to eat to help break up furballs. Gomez the Magnificent hates it when I smear some petromalt on his paw, and he'll tear off running around the apartment. Some of the petromalt inevitably winds up on the wall, or the window blinds, or the carpet. Taste it, does it taste malty?
 
Ylva said:
DON'T TASTE IT!!!! You have no idea where it's been. :vomit:
Click to expand...

No kidding there! And if it is a hair ball remedy how do you know which side of the cat it came from?

Ever hear of (insect) frass? We get little frass piles in the corners where the spiders like to hang out. Look above where the frame was hanging and see if there are any spider webs. It would have to be a huge one, like Shelob huge.... So maybe not frass, but would you really want to taste it and find out?
 
Ylva said:
DON'T TASTE IT!!!! You have no idea where it's been. :vomit:
Click to expand...

You could put your eye out! :icon21:

The cat thing sounds interesting. As for bumpons, it's possible someone could
use super old bumpons on a newish frame. Sure does look to me like something
meltydrippyspattered.
 
Are we going to cut that thing up and find out already. This is like watching one of those "to be continued" cliff hangers on TV. :shrug:
 
It looks like teriyaki sauce.
 
Yah really!!! Chop chop!!!!! Lets dissect this thing!! :p
 
How about dis-assembling the frame and drilling a few experimental bore-holes from the inside. That way if it does turn out to be an external glooping, you won't have ruined the frame.

I'll tune in tonite for the next thrilling installment. :thumbsup:
 
In 26 years of framing I can honestly say I have never seen anything like this originate from inside a stick of moulding. If the wood was imported it would have been heat treated to ensure no insects or their eggs were imported with it and that should have taken care of any "bleeding" issues.

My bet would be that the ooze comes from somewhere else and has finished up in the frame.

The only way to find out for sure is to disassemble the whole thing and look inside it. if anyone has a mass spectrometer laying around that might be helpful in identifying the goop.

I, too, will watch this space with interest .
 
artfolio said:
if anyone has a mass spectrometer laying around that might be helpful in identifying the goop.
Click to expand...
My mass spec has been acting wonky, so it’s out for repairs.

I’ve got a gas chromatograph laying around here somewhere. Hmmm, I thought it was under this old pile of Art Business News. Nope!

I guess I’ll have to keep looking. :)
 
A lot of cool theories. Has the customer come back? Do you still have the frame? Have you learned anything from the customer that they "forgot" to mention when they brought the frame in? Has anyone been cooking meth in the house and "disposed" of a body in the upstairs tub?

Do you know if the frme was hanging on the wall, leaning against it, or lying flat? Looks too red in the photo to be creosote, so I don't think it was hanging on a chimney wall... Does look like something tarry has dripped onto it.While the customer most definitely wants this to be your fault, and thus get the frame fixed for free, if it is a drip issue then there is a bigger problem where it was hanging other than a bad frame. Maybe a leaking roof, chimney issues or even newly done plumbing work and this is leaking flux? Looks hardened can't be flux... What would melting wiring look like? Crud from a faulty smoke detector?

I'd suggest trying to find out if the crud is external or internal to the frame. External could be a sign of a larger problem that they may not want to ignore :)
 
WHERE'S Abby when you need to get to the bottom of a mystery like this?

:smiley:
 
Terribly sorry to keep you all waiting this long. I haven't been on the grumble for a few days and didn't realize this little topic had generated so much suspense and speculation. I finally dismantled the frame and, well the winner is......Pine sap! I know, not nearly as much fun as meth lab residue, or dripping, decomposing body or what ever the cat ate. But the pictures don't lie.


These first two show what if found once I took the art out. The glass was basically glued in to the rabbit of the frame by all of the sap residue, which was still very sticky.
sap2.JPGsap6.JPG

These are two angles that show just how much sap was oozing out from the rabbit/unfinished side of the frame, you can see how I chipped away the compo finish to show that the sap was under the compo and then leaking out through little cracks in the finished that were either already there or created from the sap.
sap3.JPGsap4.JPG

Here is just one more angle where I cut right through one of the outside leaking points, it was still sticky under the chipped away frame finish.
sap1.JPG

Now, it did hang above a gas fireplace which I assume was the catalyst for this problem. Customer said the fireplace is only used a few times a year and we only framed this for her about 3 years ago. I've framed hundreds of pictures that hang above a mantle so this really makes me wonder if it was an isolated problem with just this one moulding line or something bigger that needs to be investigated.
 
Framar said:
Holy sap!
Click to expand...

You said it. That is astounding. Hope none of the frames I used that moulding on ever come back looking like that.
:faintthud: Rick

Did you ever get any feedback from LJ about this?
I'll bet they would be interested to see thosepictures.
 
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